WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:05.177 Die Übersetzung von Jans Stimme vom Deutschen ins Englische wurde mit einer KI erstellt. 00:00:05.817 --> 00:00:10.457 Die letzte Mal in Ukraine, in Februar, haben wir etwas sehr, sehr strange erlebt. 00:00:10.737 --> 00:00:14.697 Wir mussten unsere Presse-Label auf unsere Protektive Vests für den ersten Mal 00:00:14.697 --> 00:00:20.917 und der Grund für das war, dass wir in Kursen, eine Stadt in der Südkirche, und wir wurden gesagt, 00:00:21.417 --> 00:00:25.637 bitte, sie aufzuhören, tape über die Presse-Markings mit Duct-Tape so dass Sie 00:00:25.637 --> 00:00:27.877 nicht sofort identifizierbar sind als Journalisten. 00:00:28.117 --> 00:00:44.377 Der Grund war, dass Russische jetzt aktiv sind, Vielen Dank. 00:00:44.377 --> 00:00:47.717 Nicht nur in den Zonen, sondern auch in Deutschland selbst. 00:00:48.157 --> 00:00:51.477 Was ist eigentlich Press Freedom? Warum brauchen wir es? 00:00:51.877 --> 00:00:56.637 Und was sieht es in der ganzen Welt in Deutschland? Was sieht es in der Zonen? 00:00:56.877 --> 00:01:01.037 Und above all, wir wollen auch über die Verantwortung der Press. 00:01:01.377 --> 00:01:05.457 Denn Press Freedom ist natürlich nicht ein ein-Way-Street. Es kommt mit einem 00:01:05.457 --> 00:01:06.397 großen Teil der Verantwortung. 00:01:07.217 --> 00:01:11.937 Und das ist genau das wir wollen heute sprechen. You often have situations where 00:01:11.937 --> 00:01:15.917 your image is being deliberately distorted, where there is simply a desire to 00:01:15.917 --> 00:01:19.637 prevent certain images from reaching the world, and that is, in a way, 00:01:20.037 --> 00:01:22.577 a form of censorship. Censorship. Du hast das ganz häufig, ne? 00:01:22.937 --> 00:01:24.797 Du hast das ganz häufig, ne? Du hast das einfach sozusagen, dir dein Bild kaputt 00:01:24.797 --> 00:01:28.657 gemacht. You often find that your work is, in a way, deliberately disrupted. 00:01:29.217 --> 00:01:34.537 Your image gets broken, so to speak. And that in itself is a form of censorship. 00:01:34.997 --> 00:01:37.917 And you see that quite often in everyday political life. 00:01:38.317 --> 00:01:41.937 Security personnel, for example, stepping in front of you, physically moving 00:01:41.937 --> 00:01:46.897 you away, blocking access, so that in practice your ability to do your job is restricted. 00:01:51.226 --> 00:01:55.106 Das war ein Beispiel von Deutschland von Ratho Klar, ein Fotografier mit der 00:01:55.106 --> 00:01:58.286 Funker Media Group, mit dem ich oft bin in Krieg und Krieg. 00:01:59.086 --> 00:02:03.926 Er hat auch gesagt, dass die Freiheit in Deutschland, ist, dass es in bestimmten 00:02:03.926 --> 00:02:05.986 Situationen ist, an einem bestimmten Fall. 00:02:06.626 --> 00:02:10.826 Und in fact, das ist mehr und mehr common überall. Wir sind in Probleme, 00:02:10.846 --> 00:02:13.426 wo die Freiheit ist nicht mehr unbezüglichen Freiheit. 00:02:13.666 --> 00:02:16.066 Und zu sagen, es nie wirklich war. 00:02:16.446 --> 00:02:19.786 Das ist natürlich ein großer Herausforderer für uns als Journalisten. 00:02:19.786 --> 00:02:25.266 Und trotzdem versuchen wir zu informieren, fair und so close zu Menschen wie möglich. 00:02:25.586 --> 00:02:29.126 Das ist das Balancing Act, das wir zu machen müssen. Und wie das funktioniert, 00:02:29.406 --> 00:02:32.966 oder wie wir versuchen es zu machen, das ist genau das, was wir zu sprechen wollen. 00:02:37.646 --> 00:02:42.506 In Crisis Mode. The Podcast from Conflict Zones with Jan Jessen. 00:02:47.634 --> 00:02:52.974 Welcome to In Crisis Mode. I'm Jan Jessen, war and crisis reporter for the Funker Media Group. 00:02:53.474 --> 00:02:58.214 Press freedom is definitely not a luxury. It is in fact the foundation of enlightened 00:02:58.214 --> 00:02:59.654 and democratic societies. 00:03:00.074 --> 00:03:03.734 Because press freedom is meant to ensure that people can form their opinions 00:03:03.734 --> 00:03:06.434 based on reliable, well-researched information. 00:03:06.774 --> 00:03:11.174 And that's why it is absolutely not a luxury, but something fundamentally essential 00:03:11.174 --> 00:03:12.914 for open and informed societies. 00:03:13.634 --> 00:03:18.494 Press Freedom shapes every single day what we see and also what remains hidden. 00:03:19.014 --> 00:03:23.314 A few days ago I was in Berlin, where I was awarded the Press Freedom Prize 00:03:23.314 --> 00:03:27.154 2026 by Germany's two major publishers' associations. 00:03:27.514 --> 00:03:31.934 It was a great honour for me, and I saw it as recognition not only of my work, 00:03:32.054 --> 00:03:35.634 but also of the work of many colleagues who are constantly out in the field. 00:03:36.174 --> 00:03:40.714 Two of those colleagues are Reto Klar and André Hertz, both photographers with 00:03:40.714 --> 00:03:43.594 the Funke Media Group. You already heard Rito earlier. 00:03:43.854 --> 00:03:48.194 I often travel with both of them to war and crisis zones, whether in Israel, 00:03:48.394 --> 00:03:50.694 Syria, Ukraine, Afghanistan or elsewhere. 00:03:51.234 --> 00:03:55.014 Today they're going to share their own perspectives. And I think this is a great 00:03:55.014 --> 00:03:58.714 opportunity for you to get to know them, the people who have accompanied me 00:03:58.714 --> 00:04:01.174 on many of the journeys I've talked about in this podcast. 00:04:01.574 --> 00:04:04.694 So I'm really glad they had the time and interest to be part of this. 00:04:04.994 --> 00:04:09.574 So, what does press freedom actually mean? Let's start with a practical definition 00:04:09.574 --> 00:04:12.214 from Rito's perspective as a photographer in the field. 00:04:17.154 --> 00:04:22.134 Well, press freedom primarily means being able to say, write and photograph 00:04:22.134 --> 00:04:23.834 what you personally consider important. 00:04:24.474 --> 00:04:27.834 Because when I'm on the ground somewhere, I'm essentially the eye, 00:04:28.134 --> 00:04:29.634 the first filter of information. 00:04:30.174 --> 00:04:34.054 And doing that without fear and of course without censorship in the end. 00:04:34.514 --> 00:04:41.294 Und ohne Zensur natürlich am Ende des Tages, dass im Nachhinein jemand kommt 00:04:41.294 --> 00:04:42.714 und sagt, nee, darfst du nicht. 00:04:43.394 --> 00:04:48.634 Press freedom is definitely not an abstract concept, but something that is lived in everyday practice. 00:04:48.974 --> 00:04:55.614 Access, independence, protection from intimidation and responsibility towards the people we report on. 00:04:56.194 --> 00:05:00.934 There was recently another edition of the Press Freedom Ranking by Reporters Without Borders. 00:05:01.394 --> 00:05:06.054 It's an organisation that works globally to defend press freedom and publishes 00:05:06.054 --> 00:05:08.994 an annual ranking showing how it is developing around the world. 00:05:09.274 --> 00:05:13.754 This year, for the first time, more than half of all countries fell into the 00:05:13.754 --> 00:05:16.114 categories difficult or very serious. 00:05:16.494 --> 00:05:20.854 That is, of course, a sobering analysis. And it becomes even more striking when 00:05:20.854 --> 00:05:24.314 you see countries like Israel or the United States ranked so far down. 00:05:24.654 --> 00:05:29.674 Israel is at 116, the only democracy in the Middle East, and the US, 00:05:29.914 --> 00:05:33.874 often seen as the birthplace of modern democracy, is now at 64. 00:05:34.554 --> 00:05:39.314 Germany has also slipped in the ranking, currently at 14. Das ist noch relativ 00:05:39.314 --> 00:05:42.754 stark, und ich denke, wir können hier in Deutschland nicht unbedingt hier in 00:05:42.754 --> 00:05:45.014 Deutschland, obwohl es sich immer mehr schwierig ist. 00:05:45.574 --> 00:05:49.834 E.g., Kollegen in eastern Deutschland arbeiten für die Thüringer Allgemeine 00:05:49.834 --> 00:05:55.054 jetzt attenden die Ärzte, die AfD oder andere right-wingen Gruppen mit Personal Security. 00:05:55.934 --> 00:05:58.454 You can already feel that the climate is getting a bit harsher hier, 00:05:58.534 --> 00:06:02.654 aber overall, we are still in a comparatively good position. 00:06:03.214 --> 00:06:07.774 André adds another layer to this discussion, focusing on plurality and one's 00:06:07.774 --> 00:06:13.254 own Ja, pressfreiheit heißt für mich frei arbeiten zu können. 00:06:14.514 --> 00:06:17.714 Selber eine eigene Stellungnahme zu formen, eine eigene Stellungnahme zu bekommen, 00:06:17.934 --> 00:06:19.954 und zu ermöglichen, andere Perspektiven zu lassen. 00:06:20.154 --> 00:06:24.634 Es bedeutet, dass es eine pluralität von Opinions gibt, in die Debatte und sogar 00:06:24.634 --> 00:06:32.614 Friction zu sein, und es bedeutet, sich auch zu retten und zu retten und zu respektieren. 00:06:33.402 --> 00:06:37.722 Für mich ist es sehr konkret. Sitting at a desk und judging or describing the 00:06:37.722 --> 00:06:39.722 world from a distance, das ist schwierig. 00:06:40.222 --> 00:06:43.722 Of course, du kannst das zu einem gewissen, von consulting experts und so weiter. 00:06:43.962 --> 00:06:47.122 Aber für mich ist die wichtigste Part, zu gehen da, zu sein, 00:06:47.442 --> 00:06:50.462 zu sein und zu sprechen, direkt mit den Menschen und die Menschen, die die verletzten. 00:06:51.082 --> 00:06:54.542 In praktischem Sprache, wenn es um Krieg und Krise geht, es bedeutet, 00:06:54.622 --> 00:06:58.442 zu sprechen mit Menschen, die bei Krieg, Konflikten oder Verletzten sind. 00:06:58.622 --> 00:07:02.422 Und ich finde das absolut essentiell für unsere Arbeit, Das heißt. 00:07:04.622 --> 00:07:08.942 Das auch an der Press Freedom Award Ceremonie, wo ich auf die Publisher zu geben, 00:07:09.622 --> 00:07:15.102 und zu geben uns die resources zu geben, so wir können die Situation erstellen, 00:07:15.242 --> 00:07:17.382 rather than relying auf secondary sources. 00:07:17.982 --> 00:07:22.322 Aber das also bedeutet, es bedeutet, es bedeutet, es bedeutet, 00:07:22.322 --> 00:07:23.502 es bedeutet, es bedeutet, es bedeutet, es bedeutet, es bedeutet, 00:07:23.502 --> 00:07:25.422 es bedeutet, es bedeutet, es bedeutet, es bedeutet, taking a stance without 00:07:25.422 --> 00:07:26.562 falling for propaganda. 00:07:27.202 --> 00:07:31.662 However, and I've said this before, restrictions don't only begin when you have 00:07:31.662 --> 00:07:35.842 to tape over a press vest because you might otherwise be targeted by a Russian 00:07:35.842 --> 00:07:40.122 drone or when colleagues in difficult countries are imprisoned for their reporting. 00:07:40.702 --> 00:07:45.002 At the Press Freedom Award ceremony, the publisher Jimmy Lai was also honoured. 00:07:45.182 --> 00:07:48.742 He is currently in prison in China, originally from Hong Kong, 00:07:48.922 --> 00:07:51.742 and was jailed by the Chinese regime for his work. 00:08:00.122 --> 00:08:03.062 Naja, das kommt halt glaube ich immer darauf an, wie man jetzt sozusagen oder 00:08:03.062 --> 00:08:04.962 wo die Presse, wo man meint, 00:08:05.531 --> 00:08:09.371 Bis die Pressefreiheit anfängt, das fängt ja teilweise schon, 00:08:09.571 --> 00:08:13.331 sag ich mal, auf Lokalterminen an, ne? 00:08:15.311 --> 00:08:18.751 Well, I think it always depends on where you actually draw the line, 00:08:18.991 --> 00:08:20.831 where you say press freedom begins. 00:08:21.371 --> 00:08:26.291 And in some cases, it starts much earlier than people might think, even at local events. 00:08:27.531 --> 00:08:30.931 For example, I had this experience just last week in Berlin, 00:08:31.111 --> 00:08:33.391 when the Senator for Culture announced her resignation. 00:08:34.471 --> 00:08:37.971 Her assistants came in and immediately pushed the press aside and moved us behind 00:08:37.971 --> 00:08:41.051 a wall, because they didn't want images circulating of the senator, 00:08:41.171 --> 00:08:42.831 so to speak, leaving the stage. 00:08:43.831 --> 00:08:46.651 So even there images are being managed, constructed in a way, 00:08:46.831 --> 00:08:49.371 that are not really free, I mean, it's a public institution, 00:08:49.511 --> 00:08:51.431 and there was no general photography ban. 00:08:51.731 --> 00:08:54.351 So in my view, that's already where restrictions begin. 00:08:55.011 --> 00:08:58.251 And then, of course, you and I have often been in areas where press freedom 00:08:58.251 --> 00:09:01.951 exists in principle, but where the work of journalists is still restricted for 00:09:01.951 --> 00:09:05.651 various reasons. Security concerns around military sites, for example. 00:09:06.511 --> 00:09:09.811 So in many situations, press freedom is quite frequently limited in practice. 00:09:09.871 --> 00:09:12.171 Die Arbeit von Journalisten einschränken, also Sicherheitsbedenken, 00:09:13.351 --> 00:09:15.011 militärische Anlagen und und und. 00:09:15.451 --> 00:09:20.271 Also ich meine, man bedient mit Presse sozusagen, oder sagen wir mal so. 00:09:21.591 --> 00:09:24.551 Pressefreiheit wird halt relativ häufig eingeschränkt. 00:09:25.183 --> 00:09:29.503 So, there are restrictions, especially in modern press offices within ministries, 00:09:29.703 --> 00:09:33.303 or in the same way at events involving actors or concerts. 00:09:34.123 --> 00:09:37.043 Photographers in particular are facing more and more limitations. 00:09:37.463 --> 00:09:42.143 There's a growing desire to control the images that are being taken of ministers, 00:09:42.443 --> 00:09:46.383 politicians or public figures and celebrities, and that obviously doesn't make 00:09:46.383 --> 00:09:49.103 the job any easier for our colleagues working in photography. 00:09:49.583 --> 00:09:53.363 On the other hand, there are also rules that are there to protect lives. 00:09:53.363 --> 00:09:57.663 Wir experience that at the front line as well, when we're out in forward areas. 00:09:58.243 --> 00:10:03.023 There, too, the military imposes restrictions, but they often have clear reasons behind them. 00:10:07.863 --> 00:10:12.003 So, the way press freedom, or photojournalistic work in general, 00:10:12.143 --> 00:10:13.643 is restricted varies a lot. 00:10:13.883 --> 00:10:18.003 In Germany, of course, there are hostilities and attacks from different groups, 00:10:18.223 --> 00:10:22.063 whether from the right or the left. People put their hands in front of cameras, 00:10:22.323 --> 00:10:25.183 shout at you, or try to obstruct you in other ways. 00:10:25.343 --> 00:10:27.863 And as a photographer, you're especially visible. 00:10:28.183 --> 00:10:31.783 You stand out much more with a camera in your hand than someone who is just 00:10:31.783 --> 00:10:33.843 working for the press in another role. 00:10:34.363 --> 00:10:37.503 Abroad, there are of course different frameworks, for example, 00:10:37.763 --> 00:10:41.483 through accreditation systems or in military contexts. 00:10:41.843 --> 00:10:46.003 There are restrictions because we are granted access to areas that are security 00:10:46.003 --> 00:10:50.823 relevant or sensitive. In those situations, it's about protecting the safety 00:10:50.823 --> 00:10:53.983 of the people being portrayed, as well as our own safety. 00:10:54.503 --> 00:10:59.963 For instance, images can reveal locations. So, those limitations are also there 00:10:59.963 --> 00:11:01.543 to prevent that kind of risk. 00:11:01.783 --> 00:11:05.123 I don't really see that as a restriction in a negative sense, 00:11:05.343 --> 00:11:09.843 but rather as a form of support, encouraging us to be more careful and sensitive 00:11:09.843 --> 00:11:13.583 in how we handle security and the protection of the people involved. 00:11:17.263 --> 00:11:19.403 Dich zu gewährleisten. 00:11:20.421 --> 00:11:24.201 Ja, was André just described is of course always something that people debate about. 00:11:24.821 --> 00:11:28.661 Journalists also complain when militaries say, you can't just go to the front 00:11:28.661 --> 00:11:31.641 line on your own, you have to be accompanied by press officers, 00:11:31.981 --> 00:11:35.041 or you need special clearance and accreditation to go forward, 00:11:35.241 --> 00:11:38.681 and sometimes you even have to submit the images you've taken at the front. 00:11:38.961 --> 00:11:42.881 And yes, that is a restriction on press freedom, but at the same time, 00:11:43.001 --> 00:11:44.881 in my view, it is understandable. 00:11:45.361 --> 00:11:50.021 As André just outlined, Wenn wir Fotos auf der Fronten nehmen und eine Räden 00:11:50.021 --> 00:11:52.721 oder eine Rädenlinie oder eine Rädenlinie sind, und die Bilder werden publiziert, 00:11:53.261 --> 00:11:57.981 die Oppositionen können, wo sie wurden und dann direkt firet. 00:11:58.681 --> 00:12:01.201 In der schlimmsten Fall, das kann man zu Menschen getötet werden. 00:12:01.401 --> 00:12:04.241 Und das ist natürlich etwas, was man nicht zu beantwortet. 00:12:04.761 --> 00:12:08.461 So in diesem Sinne, ich denke, es ist okay zu haben solche Regeln. 00:12:08.701 --> 00:12:10.461 Sie müssen einfach nicht zu weit gehen. 00:12:10.981 --> 00:12:14.901 Wenn man in den Feld ist, gibt es sehr unterschiedliche Regulations- und Veränderungen. 00:12:15.201 --> 00:12:20.001 Zum Beispiel, wenn man mit den IDF, die Israelien Defense Forces, 00:12:20.261 --> 00:12:22.341 die restrictions sind extrem strikt. 00:12:22.781 --> 00:12:27.301 Militär censorship ist sehr verpronounced. To this day, there is no independent 00:12:27.301 --> 00:12:29.301 access for journalists into Gaza. 00:12:29.801 --> 00:12:33.941 There have been guided tours by the Israeli military, but even there you cannot 00:12:33.941 --> 00:12:36.181 just freely take photographs or move around. 00:12:36.461 --> 00:12:40.541 You are completely embedded in an IDF vehicle, you cannot leave it, 00:12:40.801 --> 00:12:44.981 you cannot speak to Palestinians, and you are taken to specific locations where 00:12:44.981 --> 00:12:49.281 you are shown things like, look, this is a hole in the ground, or this is a tunnel. 00:12:49.761 --> 00:12:53.601 You can take pictures there and then you are taken back. From a journalistic 00:12:53.601 --> 00:12:55.361 point of view, that has no real value. 00:12:55.621 --> 00:12:59.321 We have been requesting independent access to the Gaza Strip for years, 00:12:59.641 --> 00:13:03.041 simply to be able to document what is happening or has happened there. 00:13:03.361 --> 00:13:07.081 So far, that has not been possible, and personally, I find that very difficult. 00:13:07.621 --> 00:13:11.681 On the other hand, with the Ukrainian army, there are also certain restrictions, 00:13:12.041 --> 00:13:16.421 as I mentioned earlier, such as having to submit images for review and having 00:13:16.421 --> 00:13:18.381 press officers present during conversations. 00:13:18.901 --> 00:13:23.641 Aber ich habe nur einen Fall gesehen, wo etwas aktiv war, oder ich war gefragt, nicht zu publikieren. 00:13:24.381 --> 00:13:28.221 Das war ein ziemlich intensiver Situation. Ich habe ein company commander gesehen, 00:13:28.301 --> 00:13:31.581 der sicherlich ist von severe Post-Traumatik-Stress-Disorder. 00:13:31.961 --> 00:13:34.981 In der Gespräche, ich habe ihn gefragt, was, in seiner Meinung, 00:13:35.481 --> 00:13:37.081 was, in seiner Meinung, zu Ende der Krieg war. 00:13:37.281 --> 00:13:40.961 Und er sagte, dass der Präsident, der Parlament, der sich verabschiedet, 00:13:41.021 --> 00:13:42.701 und eine Militär-Diktatur installierte. 00:13:43.827 --> 00:13:47.927 At that moment, it was clear to me that I could not publish that as it was, 00:13:48.127 --> 00:13:49.967 because I would be putting him in danger. 00:13:50.727 --> 00:13:54.647 Later, a press officer also asked me not to report it in that way, 00:13:54.827 --> 00:13:58.707 and especially not to quote him by name, because it would obviously get him 00:13:58.707 --> 00:14:01.747 into serious trouble, and I think that is completely fair. 00:14:02.087 --> 00:14:06.447 In general, as I said, guidelines are fine when they are there to protect lives. 00:14:06.827 --> 00:14:09.047 In that case, I would not consider them censorship. 00:14:09.467 --> 00:14:14.647 It becomes problematic when PR interests start blocking access oder controlling images. 00:14:15.227 --> 00:14:19.387 Und wieder und wieder haben wir auch ways of pushing back against such restrictions 00:14:19.387 --> 00:14:22.067 wenn wir choose to, legally, für example. 00:14:22.367 --> 00:14:24.287 Und das passiert von Zeit zu Zeit. 00:14:24.667 --> 00:14:29.747 Aber was wir sehen, nicht nur in Deutschland aber überall, ist das das ist increasing. 00:14:30.067 --> 00:14:33.167 Press offices sind mehr und mehr trying zu influence was ist, 00:14:33.507 --> 00:14:35.307 especially in visual reporting. 00:14:35.607 --> 00:14:40.187 Und dann die Frage immer kommt, was wir sehen und was wir nicht sehen? 00:14:40.687 --> 00:14:45.447 Of course, Sie können Fotograf almost everything But some things simply won't appear in newspapers. 00:14:45.967 --> 00:14:50.367 Quite plainly, for example, we do not publish images of war dead because we 00:14:50.367 --> 00:14:52.567 do not want to violate the dignity of victims. 00:14:52.967 --> 00:14:56.107 And André brings it very precisely to the point as a photographer. 00:14:57.069 --> 00:15:02.929 Ich glaube, Fotografie ist sehr häufig eher die Frage, was zeige ich nicht, als das, was ich zeige. 00:15:03.069 --> 00:15:06.429 Also ich glaube, in der Fotografischen Perspektive ist eher die Frage, 00:15:06.609 --> 00:15:10.629 Ich denke, Fotografie ist sehr oft less about what you choose to show und more 00:15:10.629 --> 00:15:12.369 about what you choose not to show. 00:15:12.789 --> 00:15:17.949 From a photographic perspective, the real question ist oft, when do I not press the shutter? 00:15:18.209 --> 00:15:22.169 That can be for aesthetic reasons or for content-related reasons. 00:15:22.609 --> 00:15:26.869 Through our images, we create public awareness. Wir triggeren wider debates. 00:15:27.669 --> 00:15:32.349 Images can also shift or influence political dynamics. And that means that with 00:15:32.349 --> 00:15:36.189 every press of the shutter button, you carry an enormous amount of responsibility 00:15:36.189 --> 00:15:39.149 in that very moment. And you have to be aware of that. 00:15:39.589 --> 00:15:42.829 For me, the key question is really, when do I press the shutter? 00:15:43.129 --> 00:15:47.069 Because we are showing these images to an audience, you also have to ask yourself, 00:15:47.229 --> 00:15:49.349 what is actually bearable to show? 00:15:49.929 --> 00:15:54.149 A lot of photography works through suggestion. It opens up space for interpretation, 00:15:54.149 --> 00:15:56.029 visuell und conceptuell. 00:15:56.509 --> 00:16:00.149 Und ich finde immer die Bilder die größten Töne, wenn sie Dinge auf dich verbreiten. 00:16:01.949 --> 00:16:04.149 In einem sehr blühen und ganz explizit. 00:16:04.429 --> 00:16:09.649 Für mich, die quieterer Töne ist viel mehr interessant als eine große, 00:16:09.809 --> 00:16:12.789 überwählende Blutbath. Die kleinen Töne zu treffen, 00:16:13.670 --> 00:16:17.850 Das finde ich sehr viel spannender als jetzt das große Blutbad. 00:16:17.850 --> 00:16:22.190 Was André sagt natürlich applies to print and audio in exactly the same way. 00:16:22.490 --> 00:16:26.770 When I write, I also have to make sure I respect certain red lines that I don't 00:16:26.770 --> 00:16:29.750 cross, especially when speaking to people in war zones. 00:16:30.030 --> 00:16:33.830 You often meet people in the most extreme, vulnerable moments of their lives. 00:16:34.230 --> 00:16:38.450 Very often people want to talk because shared pain can sometimes feel easier to carry. 00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:42.510 But then you also have to ask yourself, when do you become a voyeur, 00:16:42.790 --> 00:16:47.190 when does it turn in to something like war pornography, if I can even put it that way. 00:16:47.390 --> 00:16:50.710 And when are you actually telling people's stories in a dignified way? 00:16:50.970 --> 00:16:55.010 You simply can't push everything to its absolute limit. You have to make sure 00:16:55.010 --> 00:16:56.230 you respect those boundaries. 00:16:56.550 --> 00:16:59.410 And I think that is part of the responsibility of journalism, 00:16:59.710 --> 00:17:04.250 to always keep the dignity of the people we report on in mind and to do everything 00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:05.790 possible not to violate it. 00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:10.290 Of course, that also includes checking facts and, as I said before, 00:17:10.910 --> 00:17:12.910 openly correcting mistakes when they happen. 00:17:13.670 --> 00:17:17.010 Das ist das Vertrauen, besonders in Zeiten von disinformation, 00:17:17.370 --> 00:17:19.670 das, ehrlich gesagt, wird mehr und mehr extrem werden. 00:17:20.728 --> 00:17:23.548 When I was in Tel Aviv during the height of the conflict with Iran, 00:17:23.788 --> 00:17:28.028 there were numerous posts on my Facebook account claiming that power had already 00:17:28.028 --> 00:17:31.848 failed in Tel Aviv, that a power plant had been hit by Iranian strikes, 00:17:32.228 --> 00:17:36.508 that there were widespread riots, and that shelters were only open to Jewish people. 00:17:36.748 --> 00:17:40.488 There were claims of large-scale destruction in the city due to incoming strikes. 00:17:40.748 --> 00:17:45.108 These posts were often accompanied by images and videos, and it was all rubbish. 00:17:45.388 --> 00:17:47.368 It was AI-generated nonsense. 00:17:47.788 --> 00:17:51.948 And this kind of content is increasing massively, Whether it's AI-generated 00:17:51.948 --> 00:17:55.808 images and videos, deepfakes, or simply written misinformation. 00:17:56.408 --> 00:18:00.368 These things get shared thousands of times because they match certain expectations 00:18:00.368 --> 00:18:02.128 or because people find them compelling. 00:18:02.548 --> 00:18:06.828 But very often it simply lies. And as journalists, we have to counter that by 00:18:06.828 --> 00:18:11.088 doing our job, by adhering to ethical standards, by checking facts, 00:18:11.268 --> 00:18:13.508 and by getting as close to the truth as possible. 00:18:13.768 --> 00:18:18.468 Because fully owning the truth, I think, is impossible. Truth is often also subjective. 00:18:18.888 --> 00:18:21.968 Aber unsere Aufgabe ist es, dass wir so weit wie möglich sind, 00:18:22.028 --> 00:18:25.608 und das ist auch eine der Grund, warum man muss in die Führung gehen. 00:18:25.988 --> 00:18:30.148 Als ich gesagt habe, das ist ein Teil von mir, aber die Leute auch immer fragen, 00:18:30.408 --> 00:18:34.388 warum du in die Warzone gehst? Warum du dich durch das? 00:18:34.768 --> 00:18:38.108 Und Rito beschreibt es als ein Moment, wo die Arbeit wird meaningful. 00:18:39.020 --> 00:18:47.180 Naja, ich mache jetzt meinen Job seit 40 Jahren ungefähr und habe wirklich so 00:18:47.180 --> 00:18:51.200 verschiedenste Phasen in meiner Arbeitswelt durchlebt. 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:57.680 Also, ich habe diese Arbeit für 40 Jahre alt, und ich habe sehr viele verschiedene 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.840 Phasen in mein Professionell. 00:18:59.060 --> 00:19:02.480 Ich habe das Wahnsinn gemacht. Repertage, portrait photography, all of that. 00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:05.600 Ich habe wirklich all of it. Tremendously. 00:19:06.220 --> 00:19:10.360 Und dann, ein paar Jahre später, ich hatte die Chance, dass ich mich in war-reportiert habe. 00:19:10.460 --> 00:19:13.320 Und für den ersten Mal hatte ich das Gefühl, dass ich wirklich, 00:19:13.360 --> 00:19:15.000 wirklich etwas meaningful war war war war. 00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:19.360 Meaningful in the sense that I felt I was doing something, I absolutely had 00:19:19.360 --> 00:19:21.120 to communicate to people, to readers. 00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:25.260 That gave me a huge amount as well. But this feeling of purpose, 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:27.140 of understanding the importance of your role? 00:19:27.560 --> 00:19:30.260 That was a completely different level of journalism for me. 00:19:30.740 --> 00:19:34.560 I mean, a nice portrait of Karl Lagerfeld, or the Chancellor, or whoever. 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:37.600 It's all nice, it's enjoyable, it's satisfying. 00:19:38.280 --> 00:19:41.500 But this form of reporting, this kind of work, was something that, 00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:44.420 on a very personal level, gave me a deep sense of fulfillment. 00:19:45.620 --> 00:19:49.180 Probably more than any other assignment ever has. Hat mich auch gefreut. 00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:53.900 Aber ich sage mal, wirklich diese Form von Berichterstattung, 00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:57.480 ja, das ist halt etwas, sag ich mal, 00:19:58.060 --> 00:20:02.200 was mich persönlich zutiefst befriedigt hat, wahrscheinlich von der Aufgabe 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:05.120 her so wie mich keine andere Aufgabe irgendwie befriedigt hat. 00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:08.800 Ja, das ist genau der Punkt. Es ist wahr, dass du wirklich hier in der Arbeit machst. 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.700 Und natürlich ist es nicht einfach. Wenn du in einer Kriegszone bist, 00:20:12.700 --> 00:20:16.700 ist es auch gefährlich. Auf der anderen Seite, du oft viel mehr arbeiten als 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:17.640 du in einer Arbeit machst. 00:20:18.060 --> 00:20:22.500 Sometimes wir sind da für 18 Stunden ein Tag. Und trotzdem, es fühlt sich wirklich sinnvoll. 00:20:22.940 --> 00:20:25.580 Denn was wir machen, ist es helfen die Menschen in Deutschland zu verstehen, 00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:28.900 was Krieg eigentlich bedeutet, was Katastrophe. actually mean. 00:20:29.320 --> 00:20:32.320 What changes because of what is happening in Ukraine, in Israel, 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:37.040 in Lebanon, in Afghanistan or anywhere else, how it transforms people's everyday lives. 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:42.120 And in that sense war and disasters are no longer something abstract or sterile 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:43.940 that you just write about from a distance. 00:20:44.380 --> 00:20:48.520 Instead you can tell the story through the experiences and destinies of individuals 00:20:48.520 --> 00:20:52.560 and give wars, conflicts and suffering a human face. 00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:54.760 And I think that is incredibly important. 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:59.700 Because only in In that way, I believe, can we also counter lies and propaganda 00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:05.220 by focusing on the people affected by these crises and letting them speak for themselves. 00:21:06.280 --> 00:21:09.600 Sometimes it's also the small quiet moments that stay with you, 00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:14.500 a sound from André that shows why empathy is such an essential part of our work. 00:21:15.354 --> 00:21:20.114 Ich glaube, auch da ist das nicht der große Peng, glaube ich, den man erwarten würde. 00:21:20.594 --> 00:21:23.474 Ich glaube, das sind die kleinen Neben-Szenen. 00:21:24.154 --> 00:21:28.394 Das sind eher in dieser Rauheit der Konflikte. I don't think it's the big bang, 00:21:28.674 --> 00:21:30.914 the kind of dramatic moment people might expect. 00:21:31.214 --> 00:21:33.614 I think it's more the small side scenes. 00:21:33.934 --> 00:21:38.754 In the rawness of conflict, it's often the quiet, gentle moments that really catch you. 00:21:38.954 --> 00:21:43.114 For example, there was an assignment at a senior center in Ukraine that we visited. 00:21:43.114 --> 00:21:47.254 A lot of elderly people were staying there, people who had simply lost their 00:21:47.254 --> 00:21:49.154 homes and had sought safety there. 00:21:49.314 --> 00:21:52.034 And there was one woman who was offering Yoga classes. 00:21:52.514 --> 00:21:55.034 Another one was simply talking about her rose garden. 00:21:55.594 --> 00:21:59.494 So there was this older woman who just spoke about it in such a simple way. 00:21:59.754 --> 00:22:03.754 And yes, that was incredibly moving. dass sie ihren Rosengarten, 00:22:04.014 --> 00:22:08.614 also da gab es eine ältere Dame, die einfach davon erzählt hat. 00:22:08.774 --> 00:22:12.554 Ja, das ist unglaublich berührend. Also... 00:22:13.114 --> 00:22:43.094 Ja. 00:22:44.034 --> 00:22:48.614 Ich denke, es ist extrem wichtig, denn wenn du dich emotionalisch fühlst. 00:22:50.234 --> 00:22:52.194 Dann sollte du diese Arbeit stoppen. 00:22:52.234 --> 00:22:55.954 Und wenn du dich tief in dein Herz gehst, dann musst du auch stoppen. 00:22:56.094 --> 00:22:57.834 Wir versuchen immer diese Balance zu finden. 00:22:58.074 --> 00:23:01.454 Wir reflektieren es zusammen, als Kollegen, und ich denke, das ist wichtig. 00:23:02.134 --> 00:23:05.034 Empathy ist definitiv nicht ein Kontradition zu Professionellism. 00:23:05.274 --> 00:23:07.374 In meinem Fall, es ist die Grundlage. 00:23:08.152 --> 00:23:11.872 Ich bin auch in Afghanistan mit Andrei. Er hat mich da twice mit mir. 00:23:12.132 --> 00:23:16.992 Ich bin da regelmäßig mit der Friedensdorf Initiative, auf die Situation auf 00:23:16.992 --> 00:23:18.972 der Gäuble, das extrem schwierig ist. 00:23:19.452 --> 00:23:22.332 Und in der Presse-Freedom ist, man kann es quasi vergessen. 00:23:23.372 --> 00:23:26.872 Local Journalisten haben keine Real-Presse-Freedom. Es ist eher oder weniger 00:23:26.872 --> 00:23:28.172 staat-messaging Journalismus. 00:23:28.712 --> 00:23:31.752 Kritikation der Regierung da, die Taliban, ist nicht toleriert. 00:23:32.192 --> 00:23:34.912 Und yet, Kollegen immer noch arbeiten auf der Gäuble. 00:23:35.112 --> 00:23:37.472 Für uns als Reporters, es geht nicht so leicht. 00:23:38.152 --> 00:23:41.972 Es wird increasingly schwer zu erhalten, für Arbeit zu bekommen. 00:23:42.132 --> 00:23:44.532 Und ja, Afghanistan ist ein extremes Fall. 00:23:44.772 --> 00:23:49.152 Aber es gibt natürlich auch andere Länder, wo journalistic Arbeit ist extrem schwierig, als auch. 00:23:49.552 --> 00:23:52.592 Eritrea, Sudan, North Korea und andere. 00:23:52.832 --> 00:23:58.132 Es bleibt wichtig, dass Afghanistan nicht immer über Politik ist. 00:23:58.492 --> 00:24:02.972 Es ist einfach über die Politik. Es ist ein Land, die sich über die Städte befinden, 00:24:02.972 --> 00:24:06.952 mit einem sehr frühen economicen Situation, und constant earthquakes, 00:24:07.252 --> 00:24:09.092 floods, droughts und all kinds of crises. 00:24:09.432 --> 00:24:12.372 Wir haben tatsächlich gesprochen über das several times in the podcast bereits. 00:24:12.712 --> 00:24:16.272 Ich werde einige Videos für Sie in den Show Notes geben. Und für André, 00:24:16.492 --> 00:24:19.592 das Assignment in Afghanistan war auch eine sehr intense Erfahrung. 00:24:20.494 --> 00:24:26.494 Das ist sehr unterschiedlich, aber ich glaube, ein Land, was an jeglichen Extrem 00:24:26.494 --> 00:24:32.754 kratzt, ist wirklich Afghanistan aus meiner Sicht, die Abkopplung von der Welt, von Weltgeschehen. 00:24:32.754 --> 00:24:37.654 Es ist sehr unterschiedlich, aber ich denke, dass eine Lande wirklich auf jeden 00:24:37.654 --> 00:24:40.974 Fall ist Afghanistan, zumindest von meinem Perspektive. 00:24:41.054 --> 00:24:44.654 Das Gefühl, dass die Menschen aus der Welt cut, von globalen Zeiten, 00:24:44.854 --> 00:24:50.914 die geografische Positionen, die Menschen in den Land, die politische Situation, 00:24:50.914 --> 00:24:55.514 die Gefühl, dass nichts wirklich funktioniert, ist alles sehr intensiv. 00:24:55.514 --> 00:24:59.974 Being so isolated in a country that is both politically and geographically cut 00:24:59.974 --> 00:25:03.054 off from the rest of the world, is something very particular. 00:25:03.334 --> 00:25:07.394 You really do feel alone there. And it's not just a feeling of isolation. 00:25:07.814 --> 00:25:12.114 It's the sense that in a crisis, there is no external organization, 00:25:12.134 --> 00:25:17.554 no political institution, no authority that can actually come in and help you out. 00:25:17.554 --> 00:25:22.254 You are essentially on your own, and you're also dealing with local forces on 00:25:22.254 --> 00:25:26.554 the ground, including things like ISIS sleeper cells and similar threats. 00:25:26.714 --> 00:25:32.834 ... den Kräften vor Ort mit IS-Schläferzellen, mit Co. 00:25:33.094 --> 00:25:38.134 Umzugehen, also da sind ja auch Konflikte, das sind ja keine symmetrischen Kriege, 00:25:38.294 --> 00:25:43.674 keine symmetrischen Konflikte, sondern das ist ja auch sehr unnössichtig und 00:25:43.674 --> 00:25:47.954 ja, das ist unglaublich besonders. So, these are not symmetrical conflicts. 00:25:48.154 --> 00:25:52.034 These are asymmetric wars and situations that are often incredibly opaque, 00:25:52.254 --> 00:25:54.314 and that in itself is extremely unique. 00:25:54.714 --> 00:25:58.674 Press freedom, I think you can ultimately say, is fundamentally essential. 00:25:59.254 --> 00:26:02.914 Without press freedom, and without the freedom of the press to report on what 00:26:02.914 --> 00:26:07.954 it wants, to hold those in power accountable, but also to portray everyday life, 00:26:08.374 --> 00:26:10.794 there is no democratic formation of opinion. 00:26:10.794 --> 00:26:14.994 Und das ist deshalb so wichtig, dass wir sicherlich, dass Pressefreiheit nicht 00:26:14.994 --> 00:26:17.834 unter weiteren Angriff, wie hier in Deutschland. 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:22.699 As I mentioned earlier, there are now cases in Eastern Germany where colleagues, 00:26:22.959 --> 00:26:27.639 even at newspapers within the Funker Media Group, require personal security 00:26:27.639 --> 00:26:29.699 when attending right-wing events. 00:26:29.919 --> 00:26:34.279 And honestly, that is just shocking, that something like that is happening in Germany. 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:39.519 I hope that this remains an exception, and that things move in a more positive direction. 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:43.779 And when it comes to work in other countries, yes, we have to go out there. 00:26:43.939 --> 00:26:48.059 We absolutely need to go into these zones of conflict, crisis and disaster. 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:53.159 To show people in Germany what is actually happening, what it means for the people on the ground. 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.199 Because all of these conflicts are not abstract political debates played out 00:26:57.199 --> 00:26:58.359 on some stage somewhere. 00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:03.659 They directly affect people's lives in very concrete ways. And that simply has to be shown. 00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:07.559 That's why I think it is so important that our publishers continue to send us 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.779 out, give us the freedom to do our jobs, and that there are still readers who 00:27:11.779 --> 00:27:13.459 are interested in this kind of reporting. 00:27:13.879 --> 00:27:16.979 At the same time, it is equally important that we as journalists 00:27:16.979 --> 00:27:19.879 Keep reflecting on our own role Stay aware of 00:27:19.879 --> 00:27:22.979 the enormous responsibility we carry Especially towards 00:27:22.979 --> 00:27:26.439 the people we report on in crisis and war zones That 00:27:26.439 --> 00:27:29.759 we respect boundaries Protect human dignity And 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.519 constantly hold ourselves accountable And when we 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:37.059 make mistakes We correct them openly So that we maintain the trust of our readers 00:27:37.059 --> 00:27:42.639 and audiences And do our job properly This has been today's episode of our podcast 00:27:42.639 --> 00:27:47.779 In Crisis Mode This podcast was produced by Alexander Baumeister who is also 00:27:47.779 --> 00:27:50.699 a journalist working at the Funkamedia Group's radio station. 00:27:50.999 --> 00:27:56.699 If you enjoyed this podcast, please like and follow us. It really helps make our work more visible. 00:27:56.999 --> 00:28:01.079 Feel free to get in touch as well. And a big thank you to Reto Klar and Andre 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:02.159 Hertz for their insights. 00:28:02.439 --> 00:28:08.299 If you have suggestions for future episodes, you can reach us at christenmodus at funkamedian.de. 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:10.859 Take care of yourselves. See you soon. All the best. 00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:15.479 In Crisis Mode.