WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:05.177 Die Übersetzung von Jans Stimme vom Deutschen ins Englische wurde mit einer KI erstellt. 00:00:05.177 --> 00:00:09.437 Der Luft ist voll von Dronen, über die Trenchen, über die Gravel-Röden, 00:00:09.537 --> 00:00:13.837 über alle Dirt-Track-Leading-Fronten. In Ukraine, Soldaten sprechen jetzt von 00:00:13.837 --> 00:00:17.637 einer Zollung, die 20 Kilometer tief ist, einige sogar 40. 00:00:17.977 --> 00:00:20.917 Jeder, der sich da bewegt, weiß, dass ein Bewegung sein könnte. 00:00:21.577 --> 00:00:26.277 Und in der Mitte dieser Zollung, neue Maschinen sind, Dronen, 00:00:26.297 --> 00:00:29.677 Tracked-Vehikel, mit Ammunition, Wasser und Essen. 00:00:30.017 --> 00:00:36.457 Some of them are armed and some are used to evacuate wounded soldiers from the 00:00:36.457 --> 00:00:38.757 kill zone who would otherwise have no chance of survival. 00:00:38.937 --> 00:00:42.517 In this episode of Crisis Mode, we want to take a closer look at how profoundly 00:00:42.517 --> 00:00:45.557 these drones have changed the war in Ukraine. 00:00:45.837 --> 00:00:51.097 What does it actually mean when ground robots suddenly become mass-produced? 00:00:51.257 --> 00:00:57.157 How close are we to those images, AI-driven drones, combat robots, 00:00:57.737 --> 00:00:59.497 a Terminator on the battlefield? 00:01:00.017 --> 00:01:02.657 Und was das alles für uns in Europa bedeutet? 00:01:02.877 --> 00:01:09.017 Without drone support, organisieren einen Attacken oder eine Defense ist essentiell eine Suicide-Mission. 00:01:14.417 --> 00:01:17.597 In Crisis Mode, the podcast from KOM. 00:01:24.021 --> 00:01:27.181 Ich bin Jan Jessen, war und crisis reporter für die Funker Media Group. 00:01:27.401 --> 00:01:31.341 In diesem Episode, wir kommen auf eine Konversation viele von euch haben bereits gehört. 00:01:31.861 --> 00:01:36.401 Putin's Drones over Europe – How Big is the Threat? war der Titel von dem Episode 00:01:36.401 --> 00:01:38.661 und wir werden es wieder in den Show Notes verabschieden. 00:01:39.221 --> 00:01:44.081 Back then, wir haben mit Militär-Expert Gustav Gressel über Drones, 00:01:44.601 --> 00:01:50.841 über Airports, Power Plants und Barracks, über Reconnaissance Flights und Russland's politische Tests. 00:01:50.841 --> 00:01:58.301 Today, we're taking it a step further, moving closer to the front line in Ukraine. 00:01:58.601 --> 00:02:03.101 As we've discussed several times on this podcast, the war in Ukraine has changed 00:02:03.101 --> 00:02:06.121 dramatically in recent years. It has now been raging for four years, 00:02:06.261 --> 00:02:09.761 and the technology has transformed completely. 00:02:10.041 --> 00:02:14.401 At the beginning, when I first traveled there, after the start of the Russian 00:02:14.401 --> 00:02:19.761 invasion, there were a few reconnaissance drones in the air directing artillery. 00:02:20.441 --> 00:02:25.621 Now, drones have become one of the most important weapons, if not the most important. 00:02:25.801 --> 00:02:29.941 As I mentioned earlier, drones now dominate the airspace directly over the front. 00:02:30.501 --> 00:02:34.581 Long-range drones attack Ukrainian cities every night. And on the other side, 00:02:34.781 --> 00:02:39.241 the Ukrainians use long-range drones every night to strike Russia's energy infrastructure, 00:02:39.821 --> 00:02:43.741 oil and gas production, in an effort to weaken the Russian war machine. 00:02:44.001 --> 00:02:45.801 There are surface drones, underwater 00:02:45.801 --> 00:02:50.881 drones. Und wenn ich da in den Kramatorsk-Ukraine war, in den USA. 00:02:52.101 --> 00:02:59.521 Bin ich mit Soldaten von der 101st Brigade in einer wooded Nähe der Stadt. 00:03:00.421 --> 00:03:04.221 Kramatorsk ist eine der zwei zwei major Stadt in den Donetsk-Region, 00:03:04.441 --> 00:03:06.241 still held by Ukrainian forces. 00:03:06.781 --> 00:03:10.841 Die 101st ist eigentlich ein Guard Brigade von Generalstaff, 00:03:10.901 --> 00:03:15.781 aber es ist jetzt auch auf der Front Line. Dort haben sie mir einen Droid-Robot 00:03:15.781 --> 00:03:18.381 gezeigt, der Droid TW 12.7. 00:03:18.621 --> 00:03:26.061 Der 12.7 betrifft den Kalliber des Weaponen auf dieser Fahrrad-Vehikl. 00:03:26.983 --> 00:03:31.483 A heavy Browning machine gun, as I said, caliber 12.7. They use it as a combat robot. 00:03:31.843 --> 00:03:37.583 But the platform carrying that Browning is also used for many other purposes. 00:03:38.323 --> 00:03:40.663 Transporting ammunition to the front as well as water and food. 00:03:40.903 --> 00:03:42.703 And sometimes evacuating the wounded. 00:03:43.143 --> 00:03:47.103 That's the machine I saw there, the one they showed me. It's used for firing. 00:03:47.583 --> 00:03:51.683 But how new is this? And at what scale are we now talking about these kinds of systems? 00:03:52.283 --> 00:03:55.683 That's what I asked Gustav Gräsel. He is a military expert at the National Defense 00:03:55.683 --> 00:03:57.643 Academy of the Austrian Armed Forces in Vienna. 00:03:58.003 --> 00:04:02.123 And you may already know him from our podcast. We've done several episodes with 00:04:02.123 --> 00:04:05.903 him. We'll also link everything we've done with him in the show notes. 00:04:07.124 --> 00:04:10.304 Ja, wir sehen sie natürlich hauptsächlich in Ukraine. Also andere Fahrzeuge 00:04:10.304 --> 00:04:15.104 benutzen auch robotische Kettenfahrzeuge, aber in viel geringerem Ausmaß. 00:04:17.164 --> 00:04:21.384 Yes, we naturally see them mainly in Ukraine. Other armed forces also use robotic 00:04:21.384 --> 00:04:23.464 tracked vehicles, but on a much smaller scale. 00:04:23.944 --> 00:04:26.384 The first application was actually in mine-clearing operations, 00:04:26.584 --> 00:04:29.424 either to remove mines or for more specialized mining tasks. 00:04:29.524 --> 00:04:32.864 For example, sending tracked robots equipped with cameras into buildings suspected 00:04:32.864 --> 00:04:36.084 of being mined. They would first take images, map the interior spaces, 00:04:36.224 --> 00:04:38.064 and only then decide how to clear the structure. 00:04:38.304 --> 00:04:41.484 In combat or logistical roles, however, these tracked robots have now become 00:04:41.484 --> 00:04:45.524 mass-produced in Ukraine. Last year alone, Ukraine produced around 12,000 ground robots. 00:04:45.884 --> 00:04:49.424 This year, the goal is 50,000. In terms of quantity, this far exceeds what has 00:04:49.424 --> 00:04:52.224 previously been deployed by other countries such as the United States or Israel. 00:04:52.224 --> 00:04:55.344 Also das ist sozusagen von der Quantität hervorweit größer als das, 00:04:55.444 --> 00:05:00.704 was bisher von anderen Staaten, USA, Israel, eingesetzt wurde. 00:05:01.424 --> 00:05:06.084 15,000 ground robots last year alone. The target is 50,000. 00:05:06.224 --> 00:05:10.024 That's an industrial scale that we in Europe are still far from reaching. 00:05:10.344 --> 00:05:14.284 And these robots aren't operating on some testing ground. They're deployed in 00:05:14.284 --> 00:05:19.624 the middle of a war in which drones, as I said, have become one of the most 00:05:19.624 --> 00:05:21.044 important categories of weapons. 00:05:21.424 --> 00:05:24.544 Every month... Tens of thousands of drones are produced. 00:05:25.304 --> 00:05:30.884 FPV drones, these kamikaze drones operating at the front, reconnaissance drones, 00:05:31.564 --> 00:05:36.844 bomber drones, long-range drones, as well as surface and underwater drones. 00:05:36.844 --> 00:05:40.624 They're built in Ukraine itself and also supplied from abroad. 00:05:41.064 --> 00:05:47.104 The UK, for example, recently announced it plans to deliver 120,000 drones to 00:05:47.104 --> 00:05:53.524 Ukraine. As I said, these have now become one of the key weapons. 00:05:53.804 --> 00:05:57.664 What that actually means in practice is something I witnessed near the front 00:05:57.664 --> 00:06:03.484 line around Kramatorsk, where the front is still about 10 to 15 kilometers away. 00:06:04.784 --> 00:06:07.744 You can already see how dangerous the situation has become when driving into 00:06:07.744 --> 00:06:11.044 Kramatorsk or into the neighboring city of Slovyansk. 00:06:11.931 --> 00:06:15.251 Für Kilometern, du fährst durch, was essentially net tunnels, 00:06:15.571 --> 00:06:22.171 protective coverings stretched over the roads to shield civilian vehicles still 00:06:22.171 --> 00:06:27.271 moving through the area, as well as military vehicles from Russian drone attacks. 00:06:27.511 --> 00:06:32.951 It's a makeshift solution, and driving through it feels quite oppressive. 00:06:33.871 --> 00:06:39.571 You're effectively inside a kind of tunnel made of fishing nets. 00:06:39.571 --> 00:06:43.091 Und manchmal kann man sehen, wo die Drones sind, da sind, da sind, 00:06:43.591 --> 00:06:47.471 da sind, da sind, da sind, da sind, da sind, da sind, da sind, 00:06:47.571 --> 00:06:48.291 da sind, da sind, da sind, da sind. 00:06:48.291 --> 00:06:55.011 All of this shows just how dramatically things have changed due to drone warfare. 00:06:55.691 --> 00:07:00.311 Wir waren near Kramatorsk in a small wooded area meeting with soldiers. 00:07:01.151 --> 00:07:07.371 At some point a large transport vehicle arrived and then this drone rattled out. 00:07:08.151 --> 00:07:11.551 At first glance, it actually looked quite cute, not particularly large, 00:07:11.671 --> 00:07:16.751 more like those small mini excavators you often see on construction sites, 00:07:16.931 --> 00:07:19.991 maybe two or three meters long, very compact in appearance. 00:07:20.891 --> 00:07:25.011 And that's exactly how this drone came across. But then you notice the machine 00:07:25.011 --> 00:07:28.051 gun mounted on it and suddenly it didn't look cute anymore. 00:07:28.231 --> 00:07:30.411 That made it feel distinctly more threatening. 00:07:30.911 --> 00:07:36.571 This drone is essentially a platform, a set of tracks with a base unit. 00:07:37.511 --> 00:07:42.251 Differente Modulungen können auf ihn beantragen werden. Nicht alle diese Dronen 00:07:42.251 --> 00:07:44.051 sind mit Maschine-Gunst. 00:07:44.471 --> 00:07:47.691 Ich fragte die Oficierenden, ob sie diese Dronen wirklich brauchen, 00:07:47.691 --> 00:07:50.011 oder ob sie eher technologische Gimmick sind. 00:07:51.334 --> 00:07:54.794 Sie sind sehr wichtig. Es sind die Wohnungen notwendig. 00:07:57.274 --> 00:08:01.414 Die in irgendwelchen Sphären benutzen sind. 00:08:01.694 --> 00:08:05.814 Ja, diese Drones sind absolut wichtig für uns. In essence, sie sind eine Lebens-Saving-Equipment. 00:08:05.874 --> 00:08:08.954 Wir benutzen sie für die Wounded Soldaten, für diejenigen, die Hilfe brauchen. 00:08:09.154 --> 00:08:11.674 Wir verkaufen sie für die Anwendung, für die Medizin, für die Medizin und für 00:08:11.674 --> 00:08:12.594 die Anwendung mit ihnen. 00:08:12.754 --> 00:08:15.534 Wir benutzen sie auch für die Mäne, und sie können auch für die Feuer-Support 00:08:15.534 --> 00:08:17.734 nutzen. Das bedeutet, dass sie wirkliche Systeme sind. 00:08:17.894 --> 00:08:24.234 Und für uns an der Front, sie sind sehr wichtig. Wir machen alles, 00:08:24.814 --> 00:08:29.854 wir machen, wir machen, wir machen eine Feuerwehr, unsere Positionen. 00:08:30.034 --> 00:08:36.094 Es sind sehr viele Funktionale Produkte, die in vielen Sätzen benutzen sind. 00:08:37.894 --> 00:08:43.914 Ja, Lebensmittel, Evacuieren die Wounded, Transporte Ammunition und Supplies, 00:08:44.094 --> 00:08:48.054 Lägen Mines, Providere Feuer-Support, all of this kann be done mit diesen Tracked 00:08:48.054 --> 00:08:50.974 Vehikeln. As I said, they're built on a modular system. 00:08:51.594 --> 00:08:55.094 Not every drone can do everything, but once you have the platform, 00:08:55.454 --> 00:08:57.814 it can be reconfigured quickly. 00:08:58.194 --> 00:09:02.094 Most of that conversion work is actually done by the units themselves. 00:09:02.534 --> 00:09:06.714 And of course, I asked the officer about a particular mission that had stayed 00:09:06.714 --> 00:09:10.474 with him, whether there was an operation he especially remembered. 00:09:10.474 --> 00:09:14.654 He didn't want to turn it into some grand heroic story. 00:09:14.914 --> 00:09:18.794 For him, this is simply everyday reality. Aber er hat er noch nicht gesagt, 00:09:18.794 --> 00:09:21.934 dass er eine Evacuation ist. 00:09:22.474 --> 00:09:25.854 Wir haben noch nicht in den Extraordinary Missions. 00:09:27.554 --> 00:09:32.114 Es ist eine gewisse Arbeit. Es ist eine Evacuation von verletten. 00:09:32.354 --> 00:09:34.334 Es sind eine Lebensmittelbarkeit. 00:09:35.434 --> 00:09:40.254 Wir senden eine Provision, wir senden eine BK. 00:09:40.414 --> 00:09:43.774 Es ist eine soziale Arbeit. 00:09:44.979 --> 00:09:47.779 Ich würde nicht sagen, dass wir immer noch immer noch gewohnt haben, 00:09:48.299 --> 00:09:49.679 die meisten von uns ist routine. 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:54.839 Aber eine Evacuation in meinem Kopf ist. Ein Infanterie-unit bringt einen sehr 00:09:54.839 --> 00:09:58.719 schweren Soldaten zu einem Positionen und ihn auf der Grunde auf der Grunde. 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.939 Es war sehr schwierig, weil Russische F.P. V. 00:10:02.059 --> 00:10:06.259 Drones waren überall, und Russische Reconnaissance war die ganze Zeit. 00:10:06.439 --> 00:10:10.979 Wir dann laden den Mann auf den Drone und ihn 16 km aus der Grunde. 00:10:14.979 --> 00:10:24.539 Wir haben die Evaküation, wir haben sie in den Dronen, die wir aufwärmung haben. 00:10:25.479 --> 00:10:31.519 Das war sehr schwer. Die Leute haben sie mit dem Dronen gebracht. 00:10:32.019 --> 00:10:38.779 Wir haben ihn mit dem Dronen gebracht und wir haben. 00:10:39.219 --> 00:10:43.559 Das war die Evaküation in der Region 16 Kilometer. 00:10:46.725 --> 00:10:50.905 Das war sehr schwierig. Wir haben die Leute, dann haben wir ihn mit dem Drone 00:10:50.905 --> 00:10:52.865 geholfen, ihn mit dem Drone und monitorieren ihn. 00:10:53.005 --> 00:10:56.305 Das war ein Evacuation über 16 Kilometern. 00:10:56.565 --> 00:11:00.765 Wenn wir über Ukraine sprechen, ist wichtig zu verstehen, dass die Drone Evacuierung 00:11:00.765 --> 00:11:06.425 der Wounded haben, das immer schwer geworden ist, ein Thema wir schon seitens 00:11:06.425 --> 00:11:07.125 in diesem Podcast haben. 00:11:07.705 --> 00:11:13.145 Drone activity in der Front hat es viel schwer gemacht. It's not just that soldiers 00:11:13.145 --> 00:11:18.005 now face enormous risks simply getting to their positions because there are 00:11:18.005 --> 00:11:19.965 so many drones in the air. 00:11:20.285 --> 00:11:24.665 Many are killed on the way in or on the way back. It also creates extreme challenges 00:11:24.665 --> 00:11:26.505 for evacuating the wounded. 00:11:27.265 --> 00:11:32.585 Normally, injured soldiers need to be moved out of frontline positions as quickly 00:11:32.585 --> 00:11:38.505 as possible so they can be treated at stabilisation points and then transferred to hospitals. 00:11:38.505 --> 00:11:42.485 This is especially critical for soldiers who apply tourniquets, 00:11:42.865 --> 00:11:49.345 those self-applied devices every soldier carries to stop severe bleeding, 00:11:49.885 --> 00:11:52.585 for example, from shrapnel wounds or arterial injuries. 00:11:52.925 --> 00:11:56.505 These tourniquets are life-saving because they stop bleeding, 00:11:56.845 --> 00:11:59.585 but they also need to be removed relatively quickly. 00:11:59.885 --> 00:12:06.505 Otherwise, the limb, an arm or a leg can die due to the restricted blood flow. 00:12:07.145 --> 00:12:12.005 Unfortunately, this has become a major problem. Many soldiers are now undergoing 00:12:12.005 --> 00:12:15.265 amputations, because the tourniquets remain in place for too long. 00:12:15.665 --> 00:12:21.905 This condition is often referred to as tourniquet syndrome, and it's something 00:12:21.905 --> 00:12:24.285 I'm seeing more and more frequently in Ukraine. 00:12:24.705 --> 00:12:30.485 That's why these ground robots are not just gadgets, they are often life-saving tools for soldiers. 00:12:31.125 --> 00:12:34.945 If you can send in a machine to retrieve a wounded soldier, you don't have to 00:12:34.945 --> 00:12:38.905 risk two or three others who would otherwise have to carry their injured comrade out under fire. 00:12:39.365 --> 00:12:43.545 And there's another aspect. Drones, not just ground drones, but aerial ones 00:12:43.545 --> 00:12:47.365 as well, have become essential lifelines for soldiers at the front. 00:12:47.765 --> 00:12:53.105 Some remain in their positions for one, two, three, sometimes even four or five months. 00:12:53.525 --> 00:12:58.185 They can't shower, they can't carry enough supplies, and they often sit in small 00:12:58.185 --> 00:13:04.065 dugouts, nur ein paar Meter m² in der Größe, die für Wochen an einem Zeitraum 00:13:04.065 --> 00:13:04.445 geholfen werden müssen. 00:13:05.305 --> 00:13:09.225 Sie müssen mit Essen, Medizin und Ammunition beherrschen. Increasingly, 00:13:09.305 --> 00:13:10.065 Drones sind dafür benutzt. 00:13:10.625 --> 00:13:18.465 Large aerial Drones können mehrere Kilogramm bis zu rund 20 Kilogramm. 00:13:19.179 --> 00:13:24.339 Dropping supplies where needed, but ground drones can carry much more, 00:13:24.419 --> 00:13:27.579 up to 200 kilograms of supplies to the front. 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:33.379 And as mentioned, they are also used to evacuate the wounded from this 20 to 00:13:33.379 --> 00:13:38.239 30 kilometer deep kill zone where kamikaze drones attack anything that moves. 00:13:38.539 --> 00:13:43.099 According to Gressel, Russian forces may now be suffering more dead than wounded 00:13:43.099 --> 00:13:48.639 simply because many injured soldiers can no longer be evacuated from the battlefield. 00:13:49.179 --> 00:13:53.199 The distances are too great and the route to collection points is too dangerous. 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:58.099 Some of the Ukrainian drones now even have mechanical arms that can lift wounded 00:13:58.099 --> 00:13:59.939 soldiers onto the platform. 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:07.019 But in most cases, it's still their comrades who place the injured soldier onto 00:14:07.019 --> 00:14:12.519 the drone, press the start button and then send the tracked vehicle off on its 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:13.919 own through the kill zone. 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:20.479 Infantry soldiers loading a severely wounded comrade onto a ground drone Russian 00:14:20.479 --> 00:14:26.239 FPV drones overhead Russian reconnaissance everywhere 16 km, 00:14:26.699 --> 00:14:33.059 as the officer described in minus 15 degrees Celsius 4 hours on a tracked vehicle 00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:34.719 right through the kill zone. 00:14:35.788 --> 00:14:39.348 Without these drones, the officer said, the wounded would simply freeze to death. 00:14:39.628 --> 00:14:40.908 That's one side of the story. 00:14:41.548 --> 00:14:45.828 Ground robots as improvised ambulances in a world where the routes to the front 00:14:45.828 --> 00:14:53.268 have become deadly, where evacuation itself has turned into a massive problem. 00:14:53.648 --> 00:14:58.368 But on the other hand, these systems are only part of a much larger picture. 00:14:58.548 --> 00:15:03.908 Gressel says Ukraine is only just beginning to learn how to integrate ground 00:15:03.908 --> 00:15:07.188 and aerial drones mit Infantry und Armored Units into Coordinated Operations. 00:15:12.848 --> 00:15:16.788 The increased production numbers mean that last year many individual systems were tested. 00:15:17.228 --> 00:15:20.348 And this year Ukraine is essentially trying to experiment with how to deploy 00:15:20.348 --> 00:15:23.628 robots in combination with regular infantry and mechanized forces. 00:15:24.228 --> 00:15:27.408 They are also testing how to coordinate multiple types of robots together and 00:15:27.408 --> 00:15:28.788 how to integrate them operationally. 00:15:29.208 --> 00:15:31.948 A lot of what is currently happening in terms of innovation and learning at 00:15:31.948 --> 00:15:35.308 the front ist tatsächlich tactical learning, figuring out what quantities of 00:15:35.308 --> 00:15:38.448 which systems are needed for which combat tasks, how the mix has to be structured 00:15:38.448 --> 00:15:42.008 and how synchronization between different systems must be achieved in order to be successful. 00:15:45.115 --> 00:15:50.335 The drone I looked at there, the Droid TW 12.7, the one equipped with a Browning 00:15:50.335 --> 00:15:53.675 machine gun, reportedly achieved something quite remarkable. 00:15:53.855 --> 00:15:57.935 Not this exact machine, but one of the same type, is said to have held a position 00:15:57.935 --> 00:15:59.315 for about a month and a half. 00:15:59.835 --> 00:16:04.095 That means the system was deployed to the front line, moved into position, 00:16:04.115 --> 00:16:06.495 and then effectively secured that area. 00:16:06.775 --> 00:16:10.355 And according to the soldiers, it managed to do this for around six weeks. 00:16:10.355 --> 00:16:15.715 During that time, it also reportedly engaged in several firefights with Russian 00:16:15.715 --> 00:16:19.035 soldiers and assault units attempting to break through to the front. 00:16:19.355 --> 00:16:23.655 At night, the machine would return, be reloaded, its batteries recharged, 00:16:23.735 --> 00:16:26.995 and then head back out to the same position the next morning. 00:16:27.355 --> 00:16:31.135 And this cycle is said to have continued for about a month and a half, 00:16:31.295 --> 00:16:33.235 as the soldiers I spoke with told me. 00:16:33.655 --> 00:16:38.675 More recently, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that Für den ersten 00:16:38.675 --> 00:16:44.875 Mal, die russische Positionen wurden gesammelt, nur mit unvergänglichen Systemen benutzt. 00:16:45.095 --> 00:16:49.075 In anderen Worten, diese Maschinen waren nicht nur defensiviert, 00:16:49.075 --> 00:16:51.735 um eine Position zu halten, sie waren in eine offensivante Operation. 00:16:52.115 --> 00:16:57.915 Und natürlich, das klingt quasi wie science-fiction, eine Krieg ohne Soldaten in direktem Kampf. 00:16:58.355 --> 00:17:02.775 Ich fragte Gustav Gressel, ob das tatsächlich realistisch ist oder ob es mehr 00:17:02.775 --> 00:17:03.995 möglich ist, Propaganda. 00:17:04.866 --> 00:17:05.146 Ja. 00:17:10.726 --> 00:17:14.406 Ukraine is experimenting with such offensive methods. In purely robotic attacks, 00:17:14.406 --> 00:17:16.626 however, the terrain still has to be held at some point. 00:17:17.046 --> 00:17:20.586 Eventually, infantry has to move in. So there is usually a transition between 00:17:20.586 --> 00:17:24.746 robotic control and human control, and drawing clear boundaries between the two is difficult. 00:17:25.206 --> 00:17:27.786 What is interesting is that in these seven phases of a Ukrainian attack, 00:17:27.966 --> 00:17:31.526 only the last two phases are actually carried out by regular mechanized infantry, 00:17:31.666 --> 00:17:35.426 armored infantry units, known in Germany as Panzergrenadier, und physical troops. 00:17:35.786 --> 00:17:38.486 In den ersten Phasen, conventional artillery still plays a limited role. 00:17:38.606 --> 00:17:40.266 Aber für die meisten Parten, drones dominate. 00:17:40.666 --> 00:17:42.766 Reconnaissance in attack drones, electronic warfare systems, 00:17:42.966 --> 00:17:45.306 electronic intelligence systems und similar technologies. 00:17:52.466 --> 00:17:56.126 Yes, that may be the big reality check when it comes to robotic attacks. 00:17:56.746 --> 00:18:00.566 In the end, humans still have to go into the terrain. There always need to be 00:18:00.566 --> 00:18:05.286 soldiers who physically hold ground and who, wenn es um zu nehmen oder zu schützen 00:18:05.286 --> 00:18:11.046 territory geht, um zu erinnern, dass es eigentlich kontrolliert wird. 00:18:11.526 --> 00:18:17.206 Die reale Frage ist weniger über wann die Maschinen vollständig werden, 00:18:17.706 --> 00:18:23.266 sondern mehr über wie die Dronen die Battlesfeld vorbereiten und wie sie die 00:18:23.266 --> 00:18:23.986 Natur der Krieg verändern. 00:18:24.126 --> 00:18:30.886 Wenn man mit Dronen-Operanten in der Ukraine spricht, und wir haben das für 00:18:30.886 --> 00:18:31.886 diesen Podcast schon seitens getan. 00:18:32.962 --> 00:18:38.222 You constantly hear the same idea. In the future, drones may only receive a 00:18:38.222 --> 00:18:43.642 mission objective and artificial intelligence will handle everything else. What does that mean? 00:18:43.922 --> 00:18:49.802 The theory is that drones would eventually be equipped with small onboard computers 00:18:49.802 --> 00:18:53.362 or controlled by them that are AI driven. 00:18:53.642 --> 00:18:59.082 That could solve many of the current problems on the battlefield when it comes to drones. 00:18:59.922 --> 00:19:05.082 Right now, the biggest issue is that many drones are still radio-controlled. 00:19:05.382 --> 00:19:09.702 That makes them vulnerable to jamming and disruption through electronic warfare. 00:19:10.062 --> 00:19:15.062 This wouldn't be the case if the drone had its own small brain, so to speak. 00:19:15.302 --> 00:19:18.722 In that scenario, there would be no need for pilots anymore. 00:19:18.722 --> 00:19:22.702 The drone would simply receive a mission and a tactical objective, 00:19:23.242 --> 00:19:29.322 then set off on the ground or in the air and carry out that mission autonomously. 00:19:29.582 --> 00:19:32.982 It's a chilling idea, of course, because in practical terms it would also mean 00:19:32.982 --> 00:19:36.842 that a drone could ultimately decide on its own what counts as a legitimate 00:19:36.842 --> 00:19:40.422 target, what is a high-value target, Und es könnte auch entscheiden, 00:19:41.162 --> 00:19:44.022 dass Menschen aus dem ETHIC-Perspektive zu töten. 00:19:44.042 --> 00:19:47.802 Das ist extrem schwierig, obwohl man in der Krieg immer immer fragt, 00:19:48.002 --> 00:19:50.542 wie eine ETHIC-WARFARE in der ersten Stelle kann. 00:19:50.722 --> 00:19:54.282 Ich fragte Kessel, ob das nur ein Traum ist, oder ein Nachtmärk, 00:19:54.682 --> 00:19:58.862 oder ob wir diese Visions von ukrainischen Engenern und Soldaten sehen, 00:19:58.862 --> 00:19:59.762 werden sie eine Realität. 00:20:00.362 --> 00:20:04.422 Aber bis wir dahin kommen, dauert es noch eine Zeit. Also wir erinnern uns an 00:20:04.422 --> 00:20:08.482 die Medienberichterstattung über zum Beispiel die Helsing HX-2, 00:20:08.482 --> 00:20:10.962 die angeblich nicht funktioniert hätte. 00:20:12.203 --> 00:20:15.183 Aber wir sind noch ein bisschen weg von dem. Wir können alle wissen, 00:20:15.283 --> 00:20:19.963 dass die Medien über die Systeme wie die Helsing-HX2 die Allergienste nicht funktioniert. 00:20:20.563 --> 00:20:23.123 Leider den Fall, dass ein paar Zahlen und die Erklärung des Verkaufs war, 00:20:23.843 --> 00:20:25.363 dass die Software der Analyse der Anwendung des Anwendungen war. 00:20:26.203 --> 00:20:28.483 Die Software, die Tarkotik des Anwendungen der Anwendungen zu finden und die 00:20:28.483 --> 00:20:32.803 Drones ohne eine direkte radio-link, besonders in Situationen von heavy jamming 00:20:32.803 --> 00:20:37.503 oder GPS-Disruption, funktioniert sehr gut auf Firing Ranges und Training Grounds. 00:20:37.743 --> 00:20:43.743 Aber in realen Kampf, die andere Seite ist, und ist nicht ein klar, identifiziertes Ziel. 00:20:44.103 --> 00:20:47.203 Depending auf wie die Russen, wie sie sich verfolgen, wie sie sich verfolgen, 00:20:47.683 --> 00:20:49.323 wie sie sich verfolgen, wie sie sich verfolgen, wie sie sich verfolgen, 00:20:49.443 --> 00:20:51.083 wie sie sich verfolgen, wie sie sich verfolgen. 00:20:51.603 --> 00:20:55.583 Es gab da wirklich noch ein paar Ziele in den Medien. Das war nicht nur in den 00:20:55.583 --> 00:21:01.803 Medien, die Ukraine-Dronen-Dronen-Stand auf die gleichen Probleme. 00:21:02.143 --> 00:21:07.583 Die Computationale und die Programme in der Real-Kombat wurden deutlich höher 00:21:07.583 --> 00:21:10.683 als die Ukraine-Dronen-Stand in testing or laboratory development. 00:21:11.123 --> 00:21:16.023 It took about a year to solve these software issues and refine the systems for real-world use. 00:21:16.323 --> 00:21:20.103 The second major challenge is bandwidth, especially with drone swarms, 00:21:20.263 --> 00:21:23.483 of which there are currently very few or none in actual deployment. 00:21:23.943 --> 00:21:26.503 Large amounts of radio communication are required. 00:21:27.043 --> 00:21:31.623 And radio is the Achilles heel of drone warfare. It can be jammed or at least 00:21:31.623 --> 00:21:35.303 detected and used to trace the origin of a signal and locate where the opponent 00:21:35.303 --> 00:21:37.983 is launching from. This means both sides are trying. 00:21:47.643 --> 00:21:51.143 Und da ist natürlich die Koordination von Drohnen untereinander, 00:21:51.223 --> 00:21:55.543 die dann sozusagen ganze Zeit technisch einen Chatter haben, ein schwieriges Ding. 00:21:56.791 --> 00:22:03.831 So, everyone is working on it and in my view, this kind of scenario is clearly a nightmare scenario. 00:22:04.271 --> 00:22:08.711 The idea that machines could one day independently decide to kill people is 00:22:08.711 --> 00:22:10.951 something I personally find deeply problematic. 00:22:11.491 --> 00:22:17.391 But the reality is more complicated than what you might imagine in a lab or in theory. 00:22:17.791 --> 00:22:19.571 That was made very clear again recently. 00:22:20.671 --> 00:22:24.991 Over the past few weeks, I noticed reporting about humanoid robots that have 00:22:24.991 --> 00:22:30.651 now arrived in Ukraine. These are Phantom MK1 robots, produced by a company 00:22:30.651 --> 00:22:34.791 that is described as a kind of American-German joint venture. 00:22:35.091 --> 00:22:38.011 These machines really do look like something out of Terminator. 00:22:38.331 --> 00:22:44.031 They are about 1.75 meters tall, black, and have an unsettling appearance. 00:22:44.191 --> 00:22:48.771 They are now in Ukraine and are being tested there for now. 00:22:48.931 --> 00:22:52.631 They are supposed to be used for supply missions, but in the future they may 00:22:52.631 --> 00:22:55.831 also be equipped to carry weapons. Und das ist dann, wenn es anfängt, 00:22:56.151 --> 00:23:00.111 wie etwas direkt aus einem Film von Science Fiction. 00:23:00.511 --> 00:23:06.011 Black humanoid-robots mit glücklichen Augen, die sich nach der Frontline bewegen, 00:23:06.171 --> 00:23:08.411 um die Kampf für Menschen zu bewegen. 00:23:08.771 --> 00:23:12.451 Ich fragte Gressel, ob das wirklich der Zukunft der Warfare ist, 00:23:12.851 --> 00:23:14.191 oder ob es mehr ein Show ist. 00:23:14.922 --> 00:23:20.362 Also humanoide Roboter halte ich zum Großteil für Spielerei ganz einfach. 00:23:20.722 --> 00:23:24.942 Nicht, weil ich sage, es wird nie Landroboter geben, die Infanterie versuchen 00:23:24.942 --> 00:23:27.002 werden, Infanterie zu ersetzen. Das wird es natürlich geben. 00:23:27.542 --> 00:23:30.682 Overall, I consider humanoid robots largely to be a gimmick. 00:23:30.882 --> 00:23:33.482 Not because I think there will never be ground robots attempting to replace 00:23:33.482 --> 00:23:35.042 infantry. Of course, there will be. 00:23:35.422 --> 00:23:38.042 But the question is, do they really need to look like humans? 00:23:38.302 --> 00:23:41.522 Like the biological form that evolved over hundreds of thousands of years as 00:23:41.522 --> 00:23:44.862 a kind of hairless ape? Wenn ich nur in der Battlefield-Effekt habe, 00:23:44.962 --> 00:23:48.482 dann würde ich sagen, dass ich nur ein Weapon-System habe, ich nicht eine Human-Shape habe. 00:23:48.602 --> 00:23:51.642 Ein Flatt-Track-Vehicle mit der Batterie-Mounted-Low und ein Arm, 00:23:51.642 --> 00:23:54.062 vielleicht eine Roboter- oder Hydraulik-Arm, das kann ein Weapon haben, 00:23:54.142 --> 00:23:55.382 hat eine viel größere Target gemacht. 00:23:55.642 --> 00:23:58.402 Its Cross-Sectional-Area ist viel größer als das von einem Human-Being. 00:23:58.582 --> 00:24:01.002 Es kann auch möglicherweise überlegen, mit höheren Ground-Pressure und mehr 00:24:01.002 --> 00:24:02.662 Stabilität als ein Walking-Humanoid-Robot. 00:24:02.822 --> 00:24:05.702 So, die Frage ist, wenn ich eine bestimmte Menge Batterie habe, 00:24:06.042 --> 00:24:07.542 wie viel ist eigentlich nur für Lokomotionen? 00:24:08.142 --> 00:24:10.902 Weil ich mich auf einen Weg zu machen, dass man zwei Legen kann. 00:24:10.902 --> 00:24:11.942 Will probably have their place, 00:24:12.082 --> 00:24:14.782 especially in civilian applications like care work or service roles. 00:24:15.102 --> 00:24:18.142 Because many environments, like cities or our homes, are designed for humans. 00:24:18.442 --> 00:24:21.842 They are built for us to live in. Kitchens, bathrooms, everything is arranged for human use. 00:24:22.342 --> 00:24:25.902 In that context, a humanoid robot makes sense. For example, helping elderly 00:24:25.902 --> 00:24:28.702 people clean their kitchen, where it cannot just stay 30 centimeters off the ground. 00:24:28.982 --> 00:24:31.382 But if the task is simply to bring a machine gun into a firing position, 00:24:31.542 --> 00:24:36.062 then a low-profile robot that effectively sticks to the ground is actually a very good solution. 00:24:36.482 --> 00:24:39.362 So, I think humanoid robots are one possible development path. 00:24:39.362 --> 00:24:42.782 But in the military domain, we will likely see highly specialized machines for 00:24:42.782 --> 00:24:46.442 specific applications rather than human-shaped robots taking over the battlefield. 00:24:47.702 --> 00:24:50.162 Aber wenn ich aber eigentlich nur ein Maschinengebär in die Stellung bringen 00:24:50.162 --> 00:24:53.482 soll, dann ist ein Roboter, der eigentlich 30 cm über den Boden klebt, 00:24:53.522 --> 00:24:56.202 eigentlich eine ganz gute Sache. Aber da ist da unten wo hingehört. 00:24:57.362 --> 00:25:01.482 Also da denke ich, ist das natürlich eine Entwicklungsvariante, 00:25:01.622 --> 00:25:07.302 aber da werden sich spezialisierte Maschinen für die jeweilige Anwendung auftun. 00:25:08.197 --> 00:25:13.297 Er sagt sehr clearly, dass er das nicht realistisch ist, dass wir es in den 00:25:13.297 --> 00:25:16.037 Terminator-Filmen sehen, um die Roboter-Filmen zu kämpfen. 00:25:16.917 --> 00:25:20.217 In anderen Worten, er nimmt uns aus der Terminator-Illusion. 00:25:20.637 --> 00:25:25.017 Natürlich, Ground Roboter werden immer weiterentwickeln, und sie werden bestimmte 00:25:25.017 --> 00:25:28.817 Tasche verwendet werden, aber sie müssen nicht wie Humans. 00:25:29.177 --> 00:25:33.337 In fact, aus einem Militär-Perspektiv, es macht viel mehr Sinn für sie zu sein, 00:25:33.337 --> 00:25:40.177 Small, flat, and difficult to hit, rather than humanoid robot soldiers from science fiction. 00:25:40.657 --> 00:25:43.777 When you talk to drone pilots, engineers, and military personnel, 00:25:44.137 --> 00:25:47.797 you quickly get the impression that the future belongs entirely to drones. 00:25:48.097 --> 00:25:51.477 It can start to seem as if artillery, tanks, 00:25:51.737 --> 00:25:57.437 and fighter jets might be relics of the past, and that we are witnessing a technological 00:25:57.437 --> 00:26:03.117 revolution similar to the First World War, when tanks suddenly appeared on the battlefield. 00:26:03.337 --> 00:26:07.517 Und als die Kavail, mit dem Horsen, plötzlich aus der Kriegsgeschehen, 00:26:07.517 --> 00:26:11.877 obwohl es noch existierte in der ersten Weltwahrer und in der ersten Weltwahrer, 00:26:11.877 --> 00:26:16.257 man könnte denken, dass die Technologie komplett verletzt werden, diese alten Systeme. 00:26:16.657 --> 00:26:19.357 Aber Gressel nicht glaubt das. 00:26:21.531 --> 00:26:25.331 Mechanisierte Kräfte werden zwar eingesetzt und sie haben noch ihren Kampfwert, 00:26:25.411 --> 00:26:30.551 aber sie können natürlich nur in den Räumen agieren, die sozusagen die neuen 00:26:30.551 --> 00:26:32.331 Kräfte, also Drohnen, Elektronische Kampfhörungen und schaffen. 00:26:32.331 --> 00:26:35.271 Mechanisierte Kräfte sind jetzt noch benutzt, und sie haben noch einen Kampfwert, 00:26:35.531 --> 00:26:38.811 aber sie können nur in den Spaces, die für sie die neue Systeme erzeugen werden, 00:26:38.811 --> 00:26:38.931 wie sie nur in den Spaces, die für sie für sie sind. 00:26:39.011 --> 00:26:41.931 Drones, Elektronik-Warfare und related capabilities. 00:26:42.471 --> 00:26:45.371 Without Dronesupport, organisieren ein Attack oder sogar eine Defense ist eine 00:26:45.371 --> 00:26:48.551 Suicide-Mission, und dieses Entwicklung wird nicht beendet. Es ist nicht so, 00:26:48.571 --> 00:26:49.591 als ob die Drones einfach nicht mehr so verändern. 00:26:49.711 --> 00:26:51.991 Die Technologie ist zu mitten für das. In der Weise, Drones, 00:26:52.091 --> 00:26:54.151 wie wir sie heute sehen, sind auch ein Produkt der Digital Revolution. 00:26:54.471 --> 00:26:57.271 Wir können das in unsere Smartphones sehen. Wie die Computing-Pohre im Großen. 00:26:57.451 --> 00:26:59.851 Wie die Miniaturizeiungssysteme und Kamera Qualität haben verhaut. 00:27:00.231 --> 00:27:02.271 Heute gibt es die Smartphones, die Sieben Kameras produzieren, 00:27:02.491 --> 00:27:05.491 die Bilder zu digitalen SLR Cameras aus der 2000en. Das zeigt, 00:27:05.531 --> 00:27:07.391 wie viel alles aufgerufen und in die Performance verbessert. 00:27:07.631 --> 00:27:12.251 Und diese Miniaturization- – die Verzweckungskosten und Batterie- – ist genau 00:27:12.251 --> 00:27:14.531 das das was für die Möglichkeit, diese Technologie zu vermitteln. 00:27:14.551 --> 00:27:17.951 Das gleiche ist an den Drones. This is not going away, and it's not going backward. 00:27:18.191 --> 00:27:21.151 At the moment, the side that is winning is the one that combines conventional 00:27:21.151 --> 00:27:24.111 firepower with drones and uses drones in a way that opens up opportunities for 00:27:24.111 --> 00:27:26.151 conventional forces to engage and eliminate the enemy. 00:27:26.371 --> 00:27:29.251 The question of when and whether drones will completely replace other weapons 00:27:29.251 --> 00:27:32.471 systems is, in my view, one that will unfold gradually over a long period of 00:27:32.471 --> 00:27:34.211 time, much more slowly than many people imagine. 00:27:34.211 --> 00:27:38.531 Konventionelle Feuerkraft mit eben diesen Drohnen verbindet und die Drohnen 00:27:38.531 --> 00:27:43.691 so nutzt, dass sie den konventionellen Streitkräften auch Ansatzmöglichkeiten 00:27:43.691 --> 00:27:45.611 kriegen, den Feind zu killen. 00:27:45.671 --> 00:27:49.471 Wahnsinnig. und wo Drohnen vollständig andere Waffensysteme ersetzen. 00:27:49.591 --> 00:27:54.911 Ich glaube, dass das selber wird ein gradueller und langsamerer Prozess werden, 00:27:55.171 --> 00:27:57.091 als wir uns das vorstellen haben. 00:27:58.196 --> 00:28:03.216 Ja, das ist sicherlich ein wichtiges Konterargument zu all den technologischen Projekten. 00:28:03.456 --> 00:28:07.096 Wie Gressel sagt, Drones nicht verändern die konventionelle Weapons zu verändern. 00:28:07.456 --> 00:28:11.996 Aber ohne Drones, Tanks und Artillerie operativen sind heute extrem vultuertig. 00:28:12.156 --> 00:28:15.396 Drones sind ein Produkt der digitalen Revolution. 00:28:16.056 --> 00:28:22.176 Und sie werden nicht mehr mehr verändern, als die Maschinen oder Artillerie 00:28:22.176 --> 00:28:26.876 nach der ersten Weltkrieg. So, instead of a single robot army, 00:28:27.356 --> 00:28:31.036 what we will likely see in the near future are mixed formations. 00:28:31.496 --> 00:28:37.156 Artillery, infantry fighting vehicles, infantry and drones working together. 00:28:37.696 --> 00:28:41.616 Drones open up space for these units, conduct reconnaissance, 00:28:42.136 --> 00:28:46.196 strike targets deep in enemy territory, carry out evacuation missions, 00:28:46.596 --> 00:28:52.696 deliver supplies, and are used for a wide range of tasks as a complement to 00:28:52.696 --> 00:28:57.496 traditional weapon systems that have defined warfare up to the Ukraine war. 00:28:58.016 --> 00:29:01.256 When I think back on this episode, two images stand out. 00:29:01.476 --> 00:29:06.196 One is the officer describing how they once placed a wounded soldier onto a 00:29:06.196 --> 00:29:10.736 ground drone in minus 15 degrees Celsius, sending it 16 kilometers through the 00:29:10.736 --> 00:29:15.016 kill zone. Without that tracked vehicle, the man would simply have frozen to death. 00:29:15.596 --> 00:29:19.016 And beyond that, the ground robot ensured that his comrades did not have to 00:29:19.016 --> 00:29:22.896 risk their own lives to carry him out or be pulled away from their positions. 00:29:23.196 --> 00:29:26.696 In that sense, it is an extremely useful addition to the military arsenal. 00:29:27.036 --> 00:29:30.456 The other image is Gressel's view. 00:29:31.256 --> 00:29:36.476 Humanoid robots are largely a gimmick. What makes sense militarily is something 00:29:36.476 --> 00:29:38.096 small, flat and hard to hit. 00:29:38.096 --> 00:29:43.236 Four years after the beginning of the war in Ukraine, we are seeing things at 00:29:43.236 --> 00:29:47.016 the front that were almost unimaginable in 2022. 00:29:47.436 --> 00:29:51.836 When I first started reporting there, reconnaissance drones were used mainly 00:29:51.836 --> 00:29:54.196 to guide artillery and observe enemy movements. 00:29:54.496 --> 00:29:59.716 At that time, large mechanized formations with armored vehicles were still common. 00:30:00.564 --> 00:30:03.564 Das hat komplett verändert. Die Front hat sich stark stagniert. 00:30:03.884 --> 00:30:07.464 Es gibt kaum noch territoriale breakthroughs von eitheren Seite, 00:30:07.524 --> 00:30:09.424 weil die Infanterie gar nicht mehr kann. 00:30:10.264 --> 00:30:20.244 Large mechanized assaults mit Infanterie-fighting und Tanks sind quasi non-existent, 00:30:20.244 --> 00:30:25.184 weil sie, besonders bei den Russen, enden in disaster. 00:30:25.184 --> 00:30:30.604 As drones dominate the airspace, ground robots are now being mass-produced. 00:30:30.944 --> 00:30:36.844 Drone units exist as their own branch within the Ukrainian armed forces. 00:30:37.164 --> 00:30:40.364 And there is extensive experimentation with artificial intelligence. 00:30:40.804 --> 00:30:45.844 At the same time, artillery and infantry are still fighting over the same villages. 00:30:47.124 --> 00:30:50.404 And perhaps that is exactly the new reality of war. 00:30:50.504 --> 00:30:53.244 It is becoming more digital, but it remains brutally analog. 00:30:53.244 --> 00:30:59.084 Machines that save lives, machines that kill, and much of what is being tested 00:30:59.084 --> 00:31:00.904 here will not stay in Ukraine. 00:31:01.764 --> 00:31:09.724 Gressel says that without drone support, an attack today is essentially a suicide mission. 00:31:10.024 --> 00:31:16.144 I would add, without understanding this, every political decision is made in 00:31:16.144 --> 00:31:22.564 the dark. Und das ist etwas, was Soldaten und Engenheber mit in der Ukraine 00:31:22.564 --> 00:31:24.644 in der Ukraine wiederum beantworten. 00:31:25.204 --> 00:31:29.244 Sie sagen, wir müssen diese Technologie weiterentwickeln, weil der Krieg, 00:31:29.344 --> 00:31:32.984 Russland, das auch macht, und zu schlafen ist nicht eine Option. 00:31:33.364 --> 00:31:36.084 Aber gleichzeitig hoffen sie auch, dass wir die Technologie weiterentwickeln. 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:42.460 Global politics will finally set some boundaries, 00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:47.000 that guardrails will be put in place and that at some point a stop button will 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:51.680 be pressed globally before we enter a development that can no longer be controlled 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:54.280 and where no one knows where it might ultimately lead. 00:31:54.620 --> 00:31:57.760 This was Crisis Mode, a podcast by the Funker Media Group. 00:31:58.020 --> 00:32:01.960 This episode was produced by Alexander Baumeister, who is also a journalist 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:06.740 at Funker's radio station. If you enjoyed this episode, follow us on Spotify, 00:32:07.320 --> 00:32:12.260 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen, and feel free to leave a rating. 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.920 If you have ideas for future episodes or questions about this one, 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:21.140 you can reach us at christenmodus at funcomedian.d. 00:32:21.560 --> 00:32:24.080 Thanks for listening. Stay alert. Take care and see you next time. 00:32:28.080 --> 00:32:29.320 In crisis mode.