WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:05.617 Ein kurzer Hinweis vorweg. Diese Folge ist in Englisch. Im Krisenmodus wird 00:00:05.617 --> 00:00:07.497 nun häufiger zweisprachig erscheinen. 00:00:09.377 --> 00:00:13.837 In June 2025, the Middle East is on edge like never before. 00:00:14.277 --> 00:00:18.897 Israeli missiles hit Tehran, exploding right in the heart of the Iranian capital. 00:00:19.357 --> 00:00:25.977 In response, Iran fires rockets at Tel Aviv. Meanwhile, the situation in Gaza keeps getting worse. 00:00:26.277 --> 00:00:30.297 The Israeli army is also striking targets in southern Lebanon and Syria, 00:00:30.737 --> 00:00:34.897 calling it self-defense. Die Welt ist kassierend, diskutiert, 00:00:35.017 --> 00:00:37.837 was passiert und fühlt sich immer und mehr unbeziehbar. 00:00:37.977 --> 00:00:44.197 In Israel, in einem Staten von Emergenzüge ist die neue Normal. So, wo ist Israel jetzt? 00:00:45.077 --> 00:00:47.317 Und was ist die Region als ein? 00:00:48.277 --> 00:00:53.837 Nach zwei Jahren von Konflikt, die Israel-Geräusche sind in einem Schadenverlust. 00:00:54.417 --> 00:00:58.437 Das ist das, was die Region hier ist heute. 00:01:05.517 --> 00:01:10.637 In Crisis Mode, the podcast from Conflict Zones with Jan Jessen. 00:01:17.098 --> 00:01:21.238 Welcome to In Crisis Mode, the podcast from the frontlines and conflict zones. 00:01:21.458 --> 00:01:26.838 I'm Jan Jessen, political editor at NRZ and a war and crisis reporter for the Funker Media Group. 00:01:27.098 --> 00:01:31.738 You've probably seen my reports in NRZ, WRZ, the Berliner Morgan Post, 00:01:31.958 --> 00:01:33.598 or the Hamburger Abendblatt. 00:01:34.098 --> 00:01:39.018 I was recently back in Israel, right after the 12-day war between Israel and Iran. 00:01:39.258 --> 00:01:43.538 I visited Tel Aviv, Beersheba, and the West Bank. Und natürlich, 00:01:43.718 --> 00:01:46.478 das war nicht der erste Mal die Funker Media Group war da. 00:01:47.118 --> 00:01:52.658 Seit dem Hamas Terror attack auf Israel in 2023, wir haben die Krieg in Gaza 00:01:52.658 --> 00:01:54.598 und die wideren Konflikten in der Region. 00:01:55.358 --> 00:01:59.678 In diesem episode, du hörst von einem Land, in einem constanten Stade, 00:01:59.798 --> 00:02:03.438 der noch immer noch zu halten, um sich zu halten, um die Leben zu halten. 00:02:03.838 --> 00:02:07.878 Amongst sie ist Ari Shalikar, former Spokesperson für die Israeli-Armee, 00:02:08.038 --> 00:02:13.558 jetzt ein Buch. His latest book is Survival Struggle, A War Diary from the Middle East. 00:02:13.738 --> 00:02:17.918 We're also joined by Usama Antar, a political scientist from Gaza, 00:02:18.318 --> 00:02:23.838 Anita Aviv, an Israeli author and education expert, whose new book is Solidarity 00:02:23.838 --> 00:02:28.678 Means Action, Israeli Civil Society After the Massacre, and Sulaiman Abu Daya, 00:02:28.998 --> 00:02:31.638 a sociologist and Palestinian from East Jerusalem. 00:02:31.918 --> 00:02:36.578 What they say often stands in stark contrast, but that's the reality of this 00:02:36.578 --> 00:02:40.758 conflict. There are a thousand perspectives here, and that's exactly why it's 00:02:40.758 --> 00:02:42.058 so important to hear them all. 00:02:42.298 --> 00:02:48.738 On October 7th, 2023, Hamas fighters and allied militias carried out the deadliest 00:02:48.738 --> 00:02:50.918 massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. 00:02:51.338 --> 00:02:56.598 They killed over 1,200 people and kidnapped more than 250 to Gaza. 00:02:57.238 --> 00:03:01.718 Since then, the whole region has been changed forever. Gaza is almost completely destroyed. 00:03:02.078 --> 00:03:06.038 The Israeli army is still attacking southern Lebanon. The Houthis continue to 00:03:06.038 --> 00:03:09.798 strike from Yemen. und der Konflikt mit Iran ist weit von über. 00:03:10.842 --> 00:03:14.342 Arya Shalikar, die Armee ist der Spokesperson, wenn der Krieg startet wurde, 00:03:14.682 --> 00:03:18.842 sagt es nicht nur ein locales Schirmisch. Es hat sich viel größer von dem Anfang. 00:03:24.682 --> 00:03:29.362 Starting on October 7th, oder auf der latest, October 8th, 2023, 00:03:30.142 --> 00:03:32.862 Israel wurde in eine Art of Survival War. 00:03:32.882 --> 00:03:36.902 Das begann, of course, mit der Attack von Hamas und Islamic Jihad, 00:03:36.982 --> 00:03:41.622 zwei terrorist-organisations. Es war sozusagen ein Terror Regime, 00:03:41.642 --> 00:03:47.402 aus dem Gaza Strip, mit der Hoffnung, dass andere Terrorist-Organisationen in der Region führten. 00:03:47.942 --> 00:03:52.342 Und sie haben. Da kamen die Palestinian-Rocket-Firte von Lebanon, 00:03:52.642 --> 00:03:57.182 Hezbollah, dann kamen von Syrien, von Yemen und sogar von Iran. 00:03:57.202 --> 00:04:01.362 Dann kamen die Ärzte in April und October 2024. 00:04:01.962 --> 00:04:05.982 So at some point, Israel found itself in a multidimensional war, 00:04:06.522 --> 00:04:10.642 one where, on one side, there is a Jewish state, and on the other, 00:04:10.782 --> 00:04:12.822 more or less seven terrorist entities. 00:04:13.042 --> 00:04:17.082 These range from organizations and regimes to states and militias. 00:04:17.362 --> 00:04:20.882 But all of them are ultimately operating under the same conductor. 00:04:21.222 --> 00:04:26.722 And that is, of course, Tehran, the Mullah regime, the so-called Axis of Terror, 00:04:26.922 --> 00:04:32.202 the Shiite Terror Axis, which includes Hamas and Islamic Jihad as well. 00:04:32.422 --> 00:04:36.982 Their goal, of course, and they've said this repeatedly, whether it's Hamas, 00:04:37.202 --> 00:04:42.062 Hezbollah or the Ayatollah in Tehran, is the elimination of the Jewish state. 00:04:43.662 --> 00:04:48.582 What Ari means when he talks about the Shiite Terror Axis is basically what's 00:04:48.582 --> 00:04:52.222 often called the Axis of Resistance against Israel. 00:04:52.722 --> 00:04:56.562 That's mainly Iran and the groups it supports. The Iranian regime, 00:04:56.842 --> 00:05:00.782 whose official doctrine includes the destruction of Israel, which they call 00:05:00.782 --> 00:05:05.982 the Zionist Entity, sees Israel as a big problem in the region that they want to get rid of. 00:05:06.322 --> 00:05:10.162 Iran is widely seen as the main sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East. 00:05:10.689 --> 00:05:14.549 Durch ihre Revolutionäre Gäste finanzieht sie ein paar Gruppen, 00:05:14.609 --> 00:05:15.149 die Israel verabschieden. 00:05:15.689 --> 00:05:20.669 Das betrifft die Houthis in Yemen, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Militien in Irak und 00:05:20.669 --> 00:05:22.969 Syrien, und natürlich Hamas in Gaza. 00:05:23.469 --> 00:05:27.509 Auch wenn Hamas ein Sunni-Grupp ist, bekommt sie noch viel Unterstützung vom Iran. 00:05:28.169 --> 00:05:32.429 Alltags machen diese Gruppen den Axis der Resistenz gegen Israel. 00:05:32.829 --> 00:05:38.609 Und das spricht Arja, wenn er Shiite Terror-Axis sagt. Das haben wir mit Hezbollah 00:05:38.609 --> 00:05:42.289 geschafft ein Jahr, nachdem die Welt geschwiegen hat. 00:05:42.429 --> 00:05:46.569 Wir achieved that with Hezbollah. A year after the world stayed silent about 00:05:46.569 --> 00:05:50.289 the attacks from Lebanon, where hundreds of thousands of Israelis in northern 00:05:50.289 --> 00:05:55.109 Israel could no longer go about their normal lives, many of them were evacuated, 00:05:55.349 --> 00:05:59.069 torn from their own homes and relocated somewhere else within Israel. 00:05:59.329 --> 00:06:02.309 No one in the world cared to put Hezbollah in its place. 00:06:02.309 --> 00:06:07.189 And only when Israel struck, on the 17th and 18th of September last year, 00:06:07.689 --> 00:06:13.069 with the Baipie operation, the Page operation, the Walkie-Talkie operation, 00:06:13.629 --> 00:06:17.809 eliminated Hezbollah's general staff, eliminated Hassan Nasrallah, 00:06:18.349 --> 00:06:23.749 then Safi al-Din, Ibrahim Akhil, and before that, Fuad Shukr. 00:06:23.969 --> 00:06:26.389 Only then did a ceasefire come into effect. 00:06:26.789 --> 00:06:31.229 Yes, that's the message. Only from a position of strength in the Middle East. 00:06:31.229 --> 00:06:35.289 You still have to use the whip against these radical Islamist-fascist hordes 00:06:35.289 --> 00:06:39.489 who have no interest in building bridges with us. They don't want dialogue. 00:06:39.769 --> 00:06:48.269 They want to destroy us." What Arya just said really sums up how a lot of Israelis 00:06:48.269 --> 00:06:50.409 I've talked to over the past few months feel. 00:06:51.029 --> 00:06:53.949 There's a kind of relentless determination in that view. 00:06:54.309 --> 00:06:59.209 And honestly, you can understand why. The images from October 7th are burned 00:06:59.209 --> 00:07:00.989 into the Israeli collective memory. 00:07:01.669 --> 00:07:05.189 Kibbutzim attacked, homes destroyed, women kidnapped and raped. 00:07:05.999 --> 00:07:10.839 Und dann ist der NOVA Festival, das Elektronik Musik Festival, das war auf 7. 00:07:10.919 --> 00:07:14.179 September, wo rund 300 junge Menschen wurden getötet. 00:07:14.359 --> 00:07:16.459 Diese Horrors haben nicht vergessen in Israel. 00:07:16.859 --> 00:07:21.239 Viele Israelis sagen, jetzt müssen wir alle unsere Enemies. Das beginnt mit 00:07:21.239 --> 00:07:25.719 Hamas in Gaza, aber auch militant Gruppen in den West Bank. 00:07:25.919 --> 00:07:31.519 Es ist wichtig, dass die West Bank ist meistens von Israel, und radical Jewish 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:38.099 settlers da oft attack Palestinians. So far, over 900 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank. 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.399 People also say, we need to confront Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:47.979 reduce threats from Syria, attacks coming from the south, and quite a few voices 00:07:47.979 --> 00:07:50.099 even say we should go all the way with Iran. 00:07:50.419 --> 00:07:54.779 You've probably heard about the 12-day war between Israel and Iran that kicked 00:07:54.779 --> 00:07:58.999 off on June 13th when Israel bombed Iranian nuclear sites. 00:07:59.739 --> 00:08:02.339 Iran responded with strikes on Israeli territory. 00:08:03.479 --> 00:08:09.859 There were earlier clashes back in April and October 2024, but those caused only limited damage. 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:15.199 This June, though, things escalated. Ballistic missiles exploded right in Tel 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:17.799 Aviv, and Iranian rockets hit Beersheba. 00:08:18.479 --> 00:08:22.739 That had never happened before, and it shook a lot of people I talked to on the ground. 00:08:23.139 --> 00:08:27.779 Some Israelis told me, for the first time, we realized how vulnerable we really 00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:33.859 are, that we can be hit, that our air defense systems, Iron Dome, Arrow 3, 00:08:34.379 --> 00:08:39.619 David's Sling, which together form a layered shield over Israel, aren't invincible. 00:08:40.239 --> 00:08:43.259 And if Iran attacks, the damage could be real. 00:08:44.499 --> 00:08:49.339 Even during my last visit, after a ceasefire between Iran and Israel was announced, 00:08:49.959 --> 00:08:52.459 many were saying, we should have finished the job. 00:08:52.699 --> 00:08:56.759 We should have toppled the regime in Tehran. We should have completely destroyed 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:58.079 Iran's nuclear program. 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:03.779 But as far as anyone can tell, that didn't happen. The Iranian nuclear program 00:09:03.779 --> 00:09:05.959 seems to be paused for now, but not destroyed. 00:09:06.259 --> 00:09:07.619 That's why many Israelis I 00:09:07.619 --> 00:09:12.139 spoke with, like Arya Shalikar, think Israel should have hit even harder. 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:16.539 Of course, many see things completely differently, especially Palestinians, 00:09:16.819 --> 00:09:18.639 who suffer the most in this conflict. 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:24.099 Usama Antar, a political scientist who lived in Gaza for years and left in December 00:09:24.099 --> 00:09:28.919 2023, shortly after the war started, says this isn't just war to him, 00:09:29.079 --> 00:09:30.939 it's systematic destruction. 00:09:30.939 --> 00:09:35.519 His family still lives in Gaza, and for him, that's the reality on the ground. 00:09:48.207 --> 00:09:51.847 To be honest, it's become completely clear by now. 00:09:51.987 --> 00:09:56.467 Israel is following a plan to expel the entire Palestinian population. 00:09:57.087 --> 00:10:02.567 Every time we think, okay, now Israel must have achieved its war goals in Gaza, 00:10:02.647 --> 00:10:05.007 we realize it's still not over. 00:10:05.167 --> 00:10:08.967 There are always new hidden objectives. And the result? 00:10:09.387 --> 00:10:14.647 More operations, more deaths, more civilian suffering. Wir sagen immer, 00:10:14.847 --> 00:10:17.527 dass das war, das kann nicht weitergehen. 00:10:17.667 --> 00:10:25.047 Aber Israel continue, bombings, destruction, deliberate attacks auf Menschen, every single day. 00:10:25.607 --> 00:10:28.747 Wie viele mehr civilians will Israel töten? 00:10:30.347 --> 00:10:35.307 Und es ist nicht nur über die Bombs in Gaza. Menschen sind deliberately starved. 00:10:35.447 --> 00:10:41.907 No Medizin ist in den Gehen. And when aid does get through, which only happens 00:10:41.907 --> 00:10:46.707 after massive international pressure, it's just a tiny amount. 00:10:47.707 --> 00:10:52.607 Then the Israeli army tells the truck drivers exactly where to go, 00:10:52.687 --> 00:10:55.067 and those places are often dangerous. 00:10:55.587 --> 00:10:58.967 Armed groups are waiting there to steal the aid. 00:10:59.607 --> 00:11:07.567 Just imagine that. The signal that food distribution is starting isn't a loudspeaker, it's real gunfire. 00:11:08.347 --> 00:11:15.707 Das Zeichen dafür, dass die Essenverteilung beginnt, ist kein Lautsprecher, sondern echtes Schuss. 00:11:16.567 --> 00:11:20.987 Ich bin zu den Gaza Strip ein paar Mal, aber das war bevor der Krieg begann. 00:11:21.267 --> 00:11:25.807 Ich wollte die Situation für mich selbst sehen. Und ja, Dinge waren bereits kompliziert dann. 00:11:26.367 --> 00:11:29.407 Aber eine Sache, die ich immer wieder zurückkehren habe, ist die Description 00:11:29.407 --> 00:11:31.807 der Gaza als eine große, open-air prison. 00:11:32.587 --> 00:11:36.507 Natürlich, die Bewegung war stark, aber ehrlich gesagt, Leben war nicht so schwer 00:11:36.507 --> 00:11:37.347 wie die Menschen denken. 00:11:38.067 --> 00:11:43.327 There were restaurants, some decent hotels, and for many daily life was still somewhat manageable. 00:11:44.754 --> 00:11:49.714 Before the Hamas terror attack in October 2023, quite a few Palestinians from 00:11:49.714 --> 00:11:51.574 Gaza were allowed to work in Israel. 00:11:52.034 --> 00:11:54.294 There was a slow shift toward easing restrictions. 00:11:54.754 --> 00:11:59.394 But that all ended with the attack. And now, if you look at the images coming 00:11:59.394 --> 00:12:04.354 out of Gaza or talk to people still there, it's clear. The situation is catastrophic. 00:12:04.934 --> 00:12:09.334 After nearly two years of war, whole parts of the Strip, Khan Yunis, 00:12:09.614 --> 00:12:14.894 Rafa, Beit Hanun, are in ruins. The scale of destruction is hard to put into words. 00:12:15.474 --> 00:12:19.254 We've already covered this in earlier episodes, including Voices from the Ground. 00:12:19.634 --> 00:12:24.314 We'll link to those in the show notes. The UN now says nearly a quarter of the 00:12:24.314 --> 00:12:27.514 2.1 million people in Gaza are going hungry. 00:12:28.254 --> 00:12:31.534 Israel says Hamas is preventing aid from being distributed. 00:12:32.174 --> 00:12:36.034 Critics argue that's just a cover, and that's really one of the major problems 00:12:36.034 --> 00:12:39.714 in this war. We don't know exactly what's going on inside Gaza. 00:12:40.354 --> 00:12:42.074 There's very little transparency. 00:12:42.914 --> 00:12:47.414 Western journalists and media outlets have been calling on Israel to allow access, 00:12:47.674 --> 00:12:50.814 but the government says it's too dangerous under the laws of war. 00:12:51.474 --> 00:12:55.114 Honestly, I think that's nonsense. We're war reporters, we know the risks, 00:12:55.354 --> 00:12:57.294 and we'd absolutely go in if we were allowed. 00:12:57.914 --> 00:13:01.894 That's our job, to see and report things firsthand. But instead, 00:13:02.094 --> 00:13:06.954 we have to rely on voices from inside Gaza and aid workers who are still there, 00:13:06.954 --> 00:13:10.614 und die historien sie erzählen, die Videos und Fotos sie senden, 00:13:10.814 --> 00:13:14.034 machen es painfully klar wie bad die Dinge wirklich sind. 00:13:14.614 --> 00:13:19.934 Just einen Tag bevor wir das Video recorded, Israel respondte zu growing international pressure. 00:13:20.394 --> 00:13:24.994 Über 100 aidorganisationen sind auf die Begründung für ein ceasefire und full humanitarian access. 00:13:25.654 --> 00:13:29.454 30 countries, including die UK, Canada, Japan und Australia, 00:13:29.734 --> 00:13:33.514 haben jetzt urged Israel zu agree zu a truce und zu let aid in. 00:13:33.514 --> 00:13:37.114 Und die Leute ich regelmäßig in Kontakt mit in Gaza sagen, dass die Situation 00:13:37.114 --> 00:13:38.354 die Wurzeln wird heute Morgen. 00:13:38.934 --> 00:13:43.074 In response, Israel annunced was sie z.B. die Humanitarian Pause ist. 00:13:44.088 --> 00:13:48.228 In certain areas, fighting is supposed to stop for 10 hours a day, 00:13:48.408 --> 00:13:49.688 so aid can be distributed. 00:13:50.028 --> 00:13:55.128 Supplies are also being airdropped into Gaza, a sign really of just how intense 00:13:55.128 --> 00:13:56.888 the pressure on Israel has become. 00:13:57.368 --> 00:14:02.128 But Usama Antar doesn't just criticize Israel. He also takes aim at the international 00:14:02.128 --> 00:14:04.148 community and especially at Germany. 00:14:08.548 --> 00:14:13.828 Germany in particular remained silent. The polite statements from the German 00:14:13.828 --> 00:14:19.408 government that they're concerned about the situation in Gaza and that they 00:14:19.408 --> 00:14:23.848 urge Israel to allow humanitarian aid are meaningless. 00:14:24.268 --> 00:14:26.248 They have no real impact. 00:14:26.728 --> 00:14:32.728 They're just empty words, like a sedative that calms you down but doesn't actually help. 00:14:33.268 --> 00:14:38.788 What's really needed is a clear ultimatum. Only real pressure can bring about 00:14:38.788 --> 00:14:46.688 change. because if there are no consequences, people become reckless and they just keep going. 00:14:47.488 --> 00:14:52.408 And that's exactly what's happening right now. Israel seems to believe the world 00:14:52.408 --> 00:14:54.428 will eventually forget all of this. 00:14:54.708 --> 00:14:58.408 But that's not going to happen. The internet doesn't forget. 00:14:59.188 --> 00:15:04.028 The images and videos of what has happened in Gaza, they'll be around for a 00:15:04.028 --> 00:15:09.068 long time and those responsible for these war crimes must be held accountable. 00:15:09.348 --> 00:15:11.688 Before an international court. 00:15:15.728 --> 00:15:19.968 Whether people like Benjamin Netanyahu or his ministers Itamar Ben-Gvir and 00:15:19.968 --> 00:15:23.928 Bezalel Smotrich, who really can be called far-right extremists, 00:15:24.268 --> 00:15:27.608 will ever face international justice, I honestly doubt it. 00:15:28.268 --> 00:15:32.028 But what's happening in Gaza right now, as Osama Antar said, 00:15:32.428 --> 00:15:35.308 are images that will leave a deep mark on the global conscience. 00:15:35.948 --> 00:15:40.528 And I have to say, in the beginning, I felt Israel's military response to the 00:15:40.528 --> 00:15:42.728 October 7th Hamas attack was justified. 00:15:43.268 --> 00:15:47.348 After all, this was the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. 00:15:47.728 --> 00:15:52.228 A military reaction was inevitable, and yes, sadly, so were civilian casualties. 00:15:52.828 --> 00:15:56.728 Hamas launches its attacks from within neighborhoods, schools, hospitals. 00:15:56.988 --> 00:16:02.768 It operates from civilian infrastructure, in plain clothes, and uses people as human shields. 00:16:03.368 --> 00:16:07.148 That's part of its strategy. Hamas wants images of civilian suffering. 00:16:07.148 --> 00:16:09.708 Es benutzt sie für die Propaganda. 00:16:09.968 --> 00:16:11.548 Es weiß genau, was es ist. 00:16:11.848 --> 00:16:16.508 Und die Waffen-Wahrer ist immer brutal, immer messy. Die Zivilisten sind verloren. 00:16:16.868 --> 00:16:20.668 Aber still, was wir sehen über die letzten Wochen, ist weit über das. 00:16:21.727 --> 00:16:24.427 Ich denke, die Regierung der Israel hat einen sehr starken Fehler gemacht. 00:16:24.907 --> 00:16:29.807 Starving die Bevölkerung als Teil einer Krieg-Stratik, ist klar, ist ein Krieg-Krime. 00:16:30.347 --> 00:16:35.447 Kein Argument ändert das. Was passiert in Gaza ist jetzt verrückt. 00:16:35.707 --> 00:16:40.107 Man kann nicht mehr Zutaten, Wasser, Mediziner für über 2 Millionen Menschen 00:16:40.107 --> 00:16:46.027 und dann überprüfen, wie ein so-called Humanitarianer Stadt in southern Gaza, 00:16:46.087 --> 00:16:47.907 wo 600,000 Menschen werden. 00:16:48.507 --> 00:16:52.627 Das ist nicht eine Lösung. Das ist nicht eine Krieg-Taktik. Das ist etwas anderes, 00:16:52.647 --> 00:16:56.007 entweder. Und wir nicht vergessen, dass das Fallout das hat, globally. 00:16:56.247 --> 00:16:59.927 Es ist bereits ein Vorteil für die Jewish-Verteilung der Welt. 00:17:00.227 --> 00:17:05.007 Es gibt ammünion zu Anti-Semiten, die nur für eine Grund für ein Grund für ihre Hände zu geben. 00:17:05.167 --> 00:17:10.267 In meinem Fall, Israel's leadership hat den Land in einem military- und moral-dead-end. 00:17:10.527 --> 00:17:14.607 Das sagt, Kritikism ist growing, inside Israel, too. 00:17:15.287 --> 00:17:19.727 Take Anita Haviv, für example. Sie ist eine Wrichter, aus Vienna, 00:17:20.027 --> 00:17:22.527 die in den 1970s war, in Israel. 00:17:22.747 --> 00:17:25.167 Wir haben ihn schon erwähnt. Sie hat sie vorhin geschrieben, 00:17:25.607 --> 00:17:29.607 Solidarity Means Action, Israeli Civil Society After the Massacre. 00:17:29.827 --> 00:17:31.387 Sie kennt die Land intimately. 00:17:31.687 --> 00:17:35.747 Und sie ist sehr anders von Arya Schalikar. Sie spricht über eine Regierung, 00:17:35.867 --> 00:17:38.787 die sich in den Menschen zu verlieren, über eine Gesellschaft, 00:17:39.287 --> 00:17:40.607 die sich in einem breaking point zu erreichen. 00:17:41.007 --> 00:17:45.467 Und sie ist auf die Menschen, die eine klar-dichtung zwischen den actions of 00:17:45.467 --> 00:17:48.727 this far-right government and the broader Israeli society. 00:17:55.687 --> 00:18:00.427 These interests aren't just different, they actually contradict each other. 00:18:01.067 --> 00:18:06.707 In my view, this government is built solely around Netanyahu's personal interests. 00:18:07.927 --> 00:18:13.127 The government is stuck in a dead end, and yet not really. Sie wird sich, 00:18:13.347 --> 00:18:20.227 dass es nach der Sommer-Recess wird, weil die ultra-Orthodox-Parteien wiederholen die Coalition. 00:18:21.147 --> 00:18:27.267 Bei dann, Netanyahu wird sicher, dass die Strictly Religiösen noch nicht in die Armee servieren. 00:18:33.052 --> 00:18:37.412 What Anita means is that Netanyahu has been facing serious domestic problems, 00:18:37.632 --> 00:18:42.172 and that started well before the Hamas attack on October 7th, 2023. 00:18:42.952 --> 00:18:47.612 You might remember those massive street protests, when Netanyahu tried to push 00:18:47.612 --> 00:18:48.932 through a judicial overhaul. 00:18:49.392 --> 00:18:54.212 Millions of Israelis took to the streets, feeling like he was steering the country toward autocracy. 00:18:54.632 --> 00:18:57.692 People were deeply worried about the state of democracy in Israel. 00:18:58.032 --> 00:19:01.872 Then came the Hamas attack, and all of that was put on hold. 00:19:02.492 --> 00:19:06.812 The country pulled together, saying, First, we have to deal with the external enemy. 00:19:07.092 --> 00:19:11.852 But Netanyahu still has a big personal problem. He's under investigation for corruption. 00:19:12.332 --> 00:19:16.532 As long as he's prime minister, he has immunity. But if his government collapses, 00:19:16.732 --> 00:19:20.692 that protection goes away, and he could end up in court or even in prison. 00:19:21.332 --> 00:19:24.372 So he's also fighting for his political and legal survival. 00:19:24.992 --> 00:19:29.092 And that, Anita suggests, might be part of why this war is still dragging on. 00:19:29.092 --> 00:19:34.272 Meanwhile, protests inside Israel are growing Protests against the way the war 00:19:34.272 --> 00:19:38.052 is being conducted And against how long it's been going on On one hand, 00:19:38.432 --> 00:19:42.892 because there are still about 50 Israeli hostages in Gaza Most are presumed 00:19:42.892 --> 00:19:47.072 dead But their families still want to bring their bodies home To bury them properly 00:19:47.072 --> 00:19:49.352 and have closure On the other hand, 00:19:49.472 --> 00:19:53.552 many Israelis are now deeply affected By the suffering of Palestinian civilians 00:19:53.552 --> 00:19:55.152 At recent demonstrations, 00:19:55.372 --> 00:19:59.332 some protesters held up photos of Palestinian children killed in Gaza. 00:19:59.712 --> 00:20:04.732 And in a powerful act of solidarity, there was a mirror protest in Gaza itself. 00:20:04.912 --> 00:20:08.272 Palestinians holding up pictures of Israeli children who had died. 00:20:08.492 --> 00:20:11.452 That was incredibly brave and honestly very moving. 00:20:12.432 --> 00:20:17.492 Anita says this clearly shows, when it comes to Gaza, what many people in Israeli 00:20:17.492 --> 00:20:21.732 society want is fundamentally different from what their government is doing. 00:20:21.732 --> 00:20:30.932 All the polls show that a large majority of people support bringing the hostages home and ending the war. 00:20:31.452 --> 00:20:35.232 The war with Iran is seen a bit differently by many Israelis. 00:20:36.152 --> 00:20:40.992 But the reality is, the soldiers can't just keep going forever, 00:20:41.352 --> 00:20:43.152 especially not the reservists. 00:20:43.392 --> 00:20:45.972 And many of them simply won't want to anymore. 00:20:46.512 --> 00:20:50.992 It's no coincidence that tens of thousands of Israelis have already left the country. 00:20:51.752 --> 00:20:57.172 At the same time, despite all the chaos and darkness, I still see hope. 00:20:57.862 --> 00:21:03.142 Nicht in politik, oder durch any political leadership, aber in civil society. 00:21:03.562 --> 00:21:08.342 Die eine reale Sorge, als ich sehe es, ist die Kraft der civilen Gesellschaft, 00:21:09.102 --> 00:21:13.522 in den Städten und in den Städten zu den Städten und in den Städten zu den Städten. 00:21:14.722 --> 00:21:21.462 Die in den Städten von den Städten, die in den Städten, in den Städten, 00:21:21.542 --> 00:21:21.542 in den Städten, in den Städten. 00:21:21.642 --> 00:21:26.862 Wenn Anita spricht über die Städte, oder Binnenflüchtlinge, als sie sie nennt, 00:21:26.862 --> 00:21:28.762 she means two groups in particular. 00:21:29.202 --> 00:21:32.822 First, the people who had to flee their homes in the Kibbutzim that were attacked 00:21:32.822 --> 00:21:37.042 and destroyed by Hamas and other militants on October 7, 2023. 00:21:37.782 --> 00:21:42.262 And second, residents in northern Israel who've been under constant threat from 00:21:42.262 --> 00:21:46.902 Hezbollah, drone strikes, mortar attacks, pretty much since that same day. 00:21:47.282 --> 00:21:51.822 All in all, around 10,000 Israelis are still displaced inside their own country. 00:21:52.082 --> 00:21:56.142 And honestly, that's something that doesn't come up much in international conversations. 00:21:56.862 --> 00:22:01.122 But it's a big deal. These people are living temporarily in other kibbutzim, 00:22:01.282 --> 00:22:03.222 in private homes or in hotels. 00:22:03.542 --> 00:22:05.502 And as long as the situation in 00:22:05.502 --> 00:22:10.882 Gaza and up north near Lebanon remains unstable, they're not going home. 00:22:11.042 --> 00:22:13.382 They're still living as displaced persons. 00:22:14.142 --> 00:22:18.642 Anita points out something important here. The fact that Israeli society has 00:22:18.642 --> 00:22:23.022 absorbed these people, housed them, supported them, it shows a real sense of 00:22:23.022 --> 00:22:27.182 solidarity. Es ist eine Art der sozialen Resilienz, die nicht immer noch gehalten 00:22:27.182 --> 00:22:28.942 wird, besonders außerhalb der Lande. 00:22:29.342 --> 00:22:32.862 In der gleichen Zeit, Anita sieht mehr und mehr Menschen in Israel starten zu 00:22:32.862 --> 00:22:37.482 sprechen, openly und courageously, gegen die Regierung, sagen, 00:22:37.662 --> 00:22:43.562 Enough, das kann nicht passieren, und eine Lösung, das sogar möglich ist Israel's Medienlandschaft. 00:22:44.142 --> 00:22:48.762 Für alle ihre Flaws, es ist immer sehr pluralistisch. You've got newspapers 00:22:48.762 --> 00:22:52.962 like Haaretz reporting critically on the war, including on alleged war crimes 00:22:52.962 --> 00:22:54.042 by the Israeli military. 00:22:54.482 --> 00:22:58.742 You've got NGOs like Bitzalem, Peace Now, and Breaking the Silence calling out 00:22:58.742 --> 00:23:03.162 human rights violations, whether they come from the army or from settlers in the West Bank. 00:23:04.074 --> 00:23:07.534 Anita believes that this kind of internal criticism is one of the things that 00:23:07.534 --> 00:23:12.194 sets Israel apart from many of its neighbors, where that kind of open dissent 00:23:12.194 --> 00:23:13.634 just wouldn't be tolerated. 00:23:13.994 --> 00:23:18.534 In some places it could even be dangerous, but of course not everyone sees it that way. 00:23:19.274 --> 00:23:22.974 Sulaiman Abu Daya, a Palestinian sociologist who lives in East Jerusalem, 00:23:23.254 --> 00:23:25.774 looks at the situation from a very different angle. 00:23:26.374 --> 00:23:30.914 From his point of view, Israel is overestimating its own strength and underestimating 00:23:30.914 --> 00:23:33.394 the toll all of this is taking on its own society. 00:23:34.074 --> 00:23:40.494 Israel ist in einer precarischen Situation, politisch, diplomatisch, 00:23:40.674 --> 00:23:44.774 moralisch, trotz seiner militärischen Stärke. 00:23:44.914 --> 00:23:48.454 I think Israel is in a very precarious position, politically. 00:23:48.834 --> 00:23:53.414 Diplomatically and morally, despite its military strength and what some might 00:23:53.414 --> 00:23:59.074 call its military successes in places like Lebanon against Iran and its influence 00:23:59.074 --> 00:24:03.394 in Syria, including its role as a supposed und die Drugs. 00:24:03.674 --> 00:24:08.114 Still, ich glaube, Israel ist überstreckt ihre Kraft und seine Grenzen. 00:24:08.494 --> 00:24:14.274 Es ist auch ein Schraub auf die Gesellschaft, die nicht nur als Dividend sind, 00:24:14.634 --> 00:24:18.094 weil es jetzt nicht nur die vielen Waren und Militärsfehlungen sind. 00:24:18.234 --> 00:24:22.574 Aber ich glaube, dass es auch in Israel gibt, led by Netanyahu, 00:24:22.614 --> 00:24:26.934 und seine extreme, sogar Faschist-Allies, wie Ben-Gvir und Smotrich, 00:24:26.934 --> 00:24:31.154 who want to fundamentally change the identity of the country and its society, 00:24:31.154 --> 00:24:34.534 and that's creating a deep rift within Israeli society itself. 00:24:34.534 --> 00:24:41.274 Die britischen Verbündeten wie Bink-Wir und Smotrich, die die bisherige Identität 00:24:41.274 --> 00:24:47.514 der Gesellschaft und Israels verändern wollen, das führt zu einer tiefen Spaltung 00:24:47.514 --> 00:24:49.494 innerhalb der israelischen Gesellschaften. 00:24:49.514 --> 00:24:54.214 What Sulaiman Abu Daya means when he talks about changing Israel's identity is this. 00:24:54.214 --> 00:24:59.074 Figures like Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich They're not just politicians, 00:24:59.354 --> 00:25:04.014 they're far-right extremists We're talking about messianic, apocalyptic types 00:25:04.014 --> 00:25:08.794 Jewish extremists, plain and simple Take Ben-Gvir, for example. 00:25:09.683 --> 00:25:15.143 Before he became Minister of National Security, he was actually convicted for supporting terrorism. 00:25:15.463 --> 00:25:19.463 And he used to have a portrait of Baruch Goldstein hanging in his living room. 00:25:19.983 --> 00:25:26.943 Goldstein was a Jewish doctor who murdered 29 Palestinian worshippers in Hebron in the 1990s. 00:25:27.343 --> 00:25:30.343 That's the kind of person Ben-Gavir openly admired. 00:25:30.803 --> 00:25:36.563 So yes, both Ben-Gavir and Smotrich are extremists. And it feels like Netanyahu 00:25:36.563 --> 00:25:37.843 is basically their hostage. 00:25:38.423 --> 00:25:44.303 That's my impression. Netanyahu is fighting for his political survival and he needs them. 00:25:44.563 --> 00:25:48.983 Without their support, his coalition collapses and if that happens, 00:25:49.183 --> 00:25:53.503 he could face serious legal trouble, especially if he loses in new elections. 00:25:54.403 --> 00:25:58.923 What's more, Ben Gavir and Smotrich don't hide what they want. 00:25:59.623 --> 00:26:04.123 They're very clear. They support the idea of a greater Israel. 00:26:04.903 --> 00:26:07.203 That means the entire West Bank 00:26:07.203 --> 00:26:12.003 and even the Gaza Strip should be Jewish territory, fully settled by Jews. 00:26:12.423 --> 00:26:16.643 They've openly talked about removing Palestinians from these areas altogether. 00:26:17.123 --> 00:26:22.683 You might remember those outrageous plans from late 2023, early 2024, 00:26:23.083 --> 00:26:29.063 the idea of emptying Gaza completely, forcibly relocating the 2 million people 00:26:29.063 --> 00:26:30.643 who live there to other countries. 00:26:31.143 --> 00:26:35.843 Even Trump supported the idea at one point. Those plans have gone quiet for 00:26:35.843 --> 00:26:40.243 now, mostly because no country wants to take in 2 million Palestinians. 00:26:40.683 --> 00:26:42.463 But the idea hasn't disappeared. 00:26:43.083 --> 00:26:47.103 That vision is still very real for people like Ben-Gavir and Smotrich. 00:26:47.723 --> 00:26:52.523 Their goal is clear. They want Israel to become an exclusively Jewish state. 00:26:52.843 --> 00:26:57.563 Right now Israel is still a very diverse country. There are many Muslim Arab 00:26:57.563 --> 00:27:00.723 citizens who live there and are free to practice their religion. 00:27:01.003 --> 00:27:06.183 But people like Ben-Gavir and Smotrich want to change that completely and they 00:27:06.183 --> 00:27:08.363 believe violence is the way to do it. 00:27:08.723 --> 00:27:13.563 That's how they think they can turn this fantasy of a greater Israel into reality. 00:27:14.083 --> 00:27:20.043 According to Sulaiman, this path Israel is on is already having international consequences. 00:27:20.983 --> 00:27:25.723 He believes the country's image as a small threatened democracy is being destroyed. 00:27:25.723 --> 00:27:34.263 On top of that, Israel is no longer seen internationally as the vulnerable, 00:27:34.603 --> 00:27:36.783 endangered state it once was. 00:27:37.343 --> 00:27:42.083 More and more countries and people around the world believe that what Israel 00:27:42.083 --> 00:27:47.183 is doing, especially in Gaza, amounts to genocide, to war crimes, 00:27:47.925 --> 00:27:53.925 And it's becoming impossible to justify. I think even some of Israel's closest 00:27:53.925 --> 00:27:59.145 allies, yes, even in Germany, are starting to question this policy. 00:28:00.025 --> 00:28:04.145 You could say Israel now stands morally exposed. 00:28:11.285 --> 00:28:15.045 That's exactly what I was getting at earlier. I mean, I really worry about this 00:28:15.045 --> 00:28:20.705 too. We can't forget, Israel is surrounded by enemies, by states and groups 00:28:20.705 --> 00:28:25.645 that have wanted to wipe it off the map since 1948, since the country was founded. 00:28:26.125 --> 00:28:29.725 But with what's happening right now, especially in the Gaza Strip, 00:28:30.165 --> 00:28:33.125 Israel is rapidly losing international reputation. 00:28:33.705 --> 00:28:38.145 And honestly, it seems to me that the Israeli government has maneuvered itself 00:28:38.145 --> 00:28:39.565 into a military dead end. 00:28:40.005 --> 00:28:43.685 I get the impression they don't really have a plan for what comes next. 00:28:43.685 --> 00:28:48.245 No Plan B, C, or D for the time after these military operations. 00:28:48.505 --> 00:28:53.165 And so far, none of their major strategic goals have really been achieved. 00:28:53.645 --> 00:28:58.725 Iran's nuclear program hasn't been destroyed. The regime in Tehran is still standing. 00:28:59.285 --> 00:29:02.285 Hezbollah hasn't been pushed back beyond the Letani River in Lebanon, 00:29:02.585 --> 00:29:06.005 which runs about 30 kilometers from Israel's northern border. 00:29:06.325 --> 00:29:08.805 They still seem quite active in that area. 00:29:09.265 --> 00:29:13.765 In Gaza, Hamas is still capable of carrying out attacks. In the West Bank, 00:29:13.925 --> 00:29:15.745 things are still extremely volatile. 00:29:16.669 --> 00:29:21.249 Jewish settlers continue to attack Palestinian villages, including Christian ones. 00:29:21.529 --> 00:29:25.369 Just a few weeks ago, they even attacked an Israeli military outpost. 00:29:25.729 --> 00:29:30.229 People are dying there nearly every week. Meanwhile, the Houthis in Yemen are 00:29:30.229 --> 00:29:32.069 still firing rockets toward Israel. 00:29:32.409 --> 00:29:36.709 And in southern Syria, Israel is carrying out operations to try to prevent terror 00:29:36.709 --> 00:29:38.789 groups from entrenching themselves near its border. 00:29:39.369 --> 00:29:42.929 Since Assad's fall, Iran has lost one of its key allies in the region. 00:29:43.229 --> 00:29:47.189 But Israel is trying to create a buffer zone there. So far, though, 00:29:47.329 --> 00:29:48.869 it hasn't been particularly successful. 00:29:49.149 --> 00:29:51.789 And as I said, international criticism is growing. 00:29:52.449 --> 00:29:57.089 Even Israel's closest allies are starting to distance themselves from Netanyahu's government. 00:29:57.789 --> 00:30:02.129 Just today, on the day we're recording this, Trump threatened Netanyahu, 00:30:02.289 --> 00:30:05.449 saying he needs to end the war in Gaza because people are starving, 00:30:05.669 --> 00:30:06.949 and that's unacceptable. 00:30:07.269 --> 00:30:11.489 So when even your most loyal partners start to pull away, that's not a good 00:30:11.489 --> 00:30:15.449 sign for your long-term future. At the same time, Israel's government is still 00:30:15.449 --> 00:30:20.229 pushing ahead with plans for new settlements in the West Bank, 22 of them to be exact. 00:30:20.409 --> 00:30:24.729 That's clearly a violation of international law and it makes the overall outlook even harder. 00:30:25.169 --> 00:30:27.889 Right now, there's really no realistic peace perspective. 00:30:28.349 --> 00:30:30.929 And then there's the question of what's going to happen with Lebanon. 00:30:31.169 --> 00:30:34.309 There are hints that Israel may be preparing new strikes there. 00:30:34.689 --> 00:30:40.109 Just yesterday, again, a top Israeli official publicly threatened Iran with 00:30:40.109 --> 00:30:44.669 renewed attacks. So the whole situation is incredibly tense. 00:30:44.989 --> 00:30:48.289 And honestly, I think Israel has boxed itself in. 00:30:48.649 --> 00:30:54.089 I'm really placing my hope in Israeli civil society that people there will push 00:30:54.089 --> 00:30:57.229 their own government to stop and think about where all this is going. 00:30:57.789 --> 00:31:01.549 The public seems exhausted, tired of fear, full of doubt. 00:31:01.829 --> 00:31:05.569 And in the end, it's also about bringing the Israeli hostages home, 00:31:05.789 --> 00:31:10.669 those who are still alive and those who've died, so that their families can find closure. 00:31:11.484 --> 00:31:16.244 Right now, though, the situation just looks bleak. And no one really knows what 00:31:16.244 --> 00:31:18.244 happens if Hamas is actually defeated. 00:31:18.724 --> 00:31:21.964 Will the violence stop? Or will the cycle just repeat? 00:31:22.344 --> 00:31:26.844 This is such an emotionally charged conflict, there are almost no simple answers. 00:31:27.184 --> 00:31:30.924 In my reporting, I've noticed how extreme the polarization is. 00:31:31.244 --> 00:31:36.944 On one side, I've been called anti-Semitic. On the other, I've been called a Zionist puppet. 00:31:37.304 --> 00:31:41.504 This black-and-white thinking, this total lack of empathy, Das ist etwas, 00:31:41.664 --> 00:31:43.844 ich habe nicht gesehen, in einem anderen Konflikt in der Welt. 00:31:43.984 --> 00:31:45.524 Es macht es viel schwerer. 00:31:45.724 --> 00:31:48.284 Und wie ich gesagt habe, es gibt keine easyen Lösungen. 00:31:48.804 --> 00:31:54.304 Wenn es ein Feier ist, in Gaza wird, wie lange es dauert. Especially wenn die 00:31:54.304 --> 00:31:56.564 Settlemente Expansion in den West Bank. 00:31:56.944 --> 00:31:59.644 France hat gerade gesehen, Palestine als ein Staat. 00:32:00.104 --> 00:32:04.264 Aber das Staat ist nur auf paper. In der Ende, die meisten Leute, 00:32:04.424 --> 00:32:09.144 auf beide Seiten, wollen sie in peace leben, ihre Familien in Sicherheit und 00:32:09.144 --> 00:32:12.004 Dignität. How we get there, though, that's the big question. 00:32:12.304 --> 00:32:15.084 Some Palestinians say Israel has to go. 00:32:15.484 --> 00:32:21.104 Some Israelis say we have to impose our will by force. Others just want reconciliation. 00:32:21.764 --> 00:32:26.644 Who will ultimately prevail? No one knows. That question is wide open, 00:32:26.644 --> 00:32:28.584 and that's where we'll leave it for now. 00:32:28.824 --> 00:32:34.124 This episode was produced by Alexander Baumeister, who's also a journalist with 00:32:34.124 --> 00:32:39.104 the Funke Media Group. If you like our work, follow us, rate us on Spotify, 00:32:39.524 --> 00:32:42.344 Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. 00:32:42.664 --> 00:32:45.864 It really helps people find us. Thanks for tuning in. 00:32:46.324 --> 00:32:48.344 Take care and see you next time. Ciao.