Ich meine, wenn du so in Gefahr der Schuldigungen bist, muss man klar sein, dass wenn du von Donald Trump geflogen bist, dass du vielleicht einen Rettung von einem Revenziger hast. Du verlierst alles. Ich verletzte alles. Ich verletzte mein Verhältnis. Ich verletzte jede Beziehung mit meiner Familie und mit meinen Freunden. Aber ich wusste, dass ich was besser für mich hatte. In turn, that would be what's best for everyone. Because, I mean... If I really didn't think that I, my husband and I could survive this, we would not be together now.

Herzlich willkommen zur Folge 65 von der Trump-Effekt. Die USA haben Geburtstag, eigentlich eine Menge zu feiern. Und am 4. Juli ist natürlich der große Geburtstag. Aber im Land regt sich natürlich auch ein Stück weit Unmut, auch Widerstand kann man sagen. Und selbst unter seinen Anhängern hat Donald Trump momentan Schwierigkeiten. Etwa 54 Prozent der Weißen ohne Hochschulabschluss sagen, wir zweifeln so langsam an dem, was er da macht. Aber wir wollen mal mit einer der Unterstützerinnen von Donald Trump reden, einer Aussteigerin aus MAGA, Carter Brown. Und Carter ist heute mit dabei. Wir haben in unserer Dokumentation, die in der vergangenen Woche ausgestrahlt wurde, mal gezeigt, wer sie ist, was sie macht. Und sie hat uns ein bisschen erklärt, warum sie sich abgewendet hat von Donald Trump. Und wir wollen heute hier mit ihr sprechen. Das sind Ulf Röller, ZDF-Studioleiter in Brüssel.

Dann Katrin Eigendorf, die internationale Sonderkorrespondentin des ZDF und ich bin Elmar Tivissen, der Büroleiter in Washington für das ZDF. Und wir nehmen auf am Montag, dem 29. Juni um 16.30 Uhr, mitteleuropäischer Hitzezeit, kann man ja sagen, Sommerzeit. Und wir führen das Interview, das ist das Neue und Andere, auf Englisch und auf YouTube findet ihr die deutsche Übersetzung. Auf den Audio-Plattformen findet ihr dann beide Fassungen. Und jetzt wechseln wir ins Englische. Hi, Carter. Good morning, Carter Brown. It's great to see you. Carter, can you tell us a little bit where you are? You are in Georgia right now? Yes, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, where I'm born and raised from.

I'm currently living with my sister while we remodel our home right now. Great. And we had the privilege, actually, to visit you in Atlanta, Georgia and do an interview with you. And we take a look at some of the pictures that we used in the documentary. And then we can see actually how we set up in the living room, I think it was. There we see the setup for the interview. I was there with my team and you took a lot of time to spend with us and talk to us about what are the motivations for you to leave MAGA. And we saw outside when you actually were posting for your followers on Instagram, because you are sharing your story with others. And I think that's very important that you do. And we can contribute a little bit to that with this podcast, because there are so many questions that our users have, but also my colleagues Katrin and Ulf have. Let me ask you first, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how important it was to support Donald Trump for you in the past before you actually, broke from him last year?

So, for me, everything about Donald Trump. So, one thing I didn't correct you on, actually, in the documentary is, and I went back and double-checked this, I actually didn't vote in 2016. I had just left rehab, and that was another point in my life where I was around secular people that weren't the bubble that I lived in. And people were like, Donald Trump's awful, he's horrible, blah, blah, blah. But on the other ear, people are telling me, he's what our country needs, he's fulfilling prophecy, you know. He's going to help Jesus come back. And so I didn't vote. And I didn't remember that until I went back and checked my voting record. And I was like, wait, I didn't vote in 2016. So it wasn't until, I got sober and turned my life around from my opiate pain pill addiction that, I believed that I could only chocolate up to God. And I gave all glory to God for that, for getting me sober. Und ich wurde entrenntet in die Ideologie, die ich in der Schule war, dass ich in der Schule ging, und dann auch in der Rehabilitation, und dann auch in der Rehabilitation, und dann auch in der Rehabilitation, und dann auch in der Rehabilitation.

Um, it was kind of instrumental for me to vote for Trump later, because I felt like my life turned around because of God. And if God wanted Donald Trump to be president, then I'll take that hook, line and sinker. But one of the main components that made me fall for Donald Trump was QAnon, saving the children. That is a big, big, huge thing for me. And I could look past the whole, he's a horrible person, as long as he's doing these great things for what I believed would happen. And here we are still waiting for those things to happen, you know. We have to, I think, quickly explain what QAnon is. It's a conspiracy theory, basically based on several different topics. But one of them is, of course, that allegedly there is a ring of pedophiles being run in the United States and that kids are abused mostly by Democrats. That was the allegation, I think.

Katrin, you have plenty of questions. First of all, I want to thank you. I think it's amazing to have this insight that you share with us, because the question that I'm asking myself the most is, why does Trump get this enormous support? And I think that's a question every political journalist asks himself. So, if I listen to you, I hear words like belief, like ideological belief.

This is far beyond what politics normally is. I mean, it's not facts. It's not the fact that a politician gives you a view how he seems to create or seems to want to create the environment for people. But... More like a religion. So can you share a little bit what attracted you? Is this right that it is far beyond politics, what we normally understand as politics? So MAGA and evangelical Western Christianity go hand in hand like this.

I really do believe this idea that the Republican Party attached themselves to being anti-abortion. Ist, wie wir hier haben. Weil die Leute, die ich weiß, die ich noch nicht so supportet, die ich sagen kann, hier ist wo er ist, X, Y, und Z. Hier ist wie er hat, er hat die Lande gemacht, ich meine, die no-bid-kontrakte für repräsentiert die Reflexion Pool, all of es. Und sie alle kommen zurück zu mir und sagen, aber er ist anti-abortion. Er ist Reversch. Und zu ihnen, das ist genug to ignore everything else as long as it fulfills the religious belief that they have for themselves. And I believe it was Reagan and around that time where the Republican Party started to attach themselves to being anti-abortion because prior to that it was something that women handled by themselves behind closed doors. It was not something the government had their hands in. And attaching themselves to being anti-abortion just hook, line, and sinker gets the white evangelical vote without question. And I wish that it... I wish more went into it.

That's really the crux of it. And the evangelical movement was a big or is a big supporter of Donald Trump. So they might have come there as single issue motivation that just this one issue of abortion brought them into the movement. But when we talk to others who are following Donald Trump, it becomes a whole variety of things and immigration also and and also, you know, people shouldn't take care of, shouldn't take advantage of the welfare system. So it's a whole variety of other reasons that then combine with this. Well, the funny thing about the immigration thing is, I mean, the only people allowed to come to our country now are like white Christians. I mean, there were hundreds of thousands of Christians who were approved to come to America under the Biden administration, but that access was revoked when Trump got back into office because they weren't white.

Yep. Und die ganze Sache mit Haiti, das ist jetzt passiert. Es sollte wirklich ein bisschen öffnen sein, weil ich viele Freunde haben, die Kinder haben. Und ich würde gerne sehen, wie sie machen, diese Rhetorik, dass, ihr wisst, Megyn Kelly war über Haitians, und sie zu gehen zurück zu ihrer Land. Ich weiß nicht, wenn du zu Haiti bist, Megyn. Um, they kind of came to America for a reason. I mean, one of my best friends from college, her sister, goes to Haiti every few years as a doctor to, you know, as a medical, medical trip. And she's adopted a child from Haiti. And they're conservative MAGA Christians. And I'd love to know what they have to say about what is happening right now. Because I feel like it just has to be one thing, one thing for someone to finally be like, okay, you know what? All the red flags that we've been ignoring I see them all now.

Thank you so much for sharing your story it's really really interesting it's, kind of opened my eyes and I still try to digest why people are getting so fascinated by Donald Trump so maybe we start when you still were a Trump supporter because I try to understand the bubble you were living in you were talking about the bubble and saying we're ignorating all the red flags, we didn't see it. How was your daily life? So did you only watch Fox News where all your family members, Muggers supporters, how is it possible to live in this own universe? So that's my question. So at the time, I didn't have many, I didn't have, I have one platform that I streamed on. I think it was Netflix. So I didn't have access to news. Um, my, my news source was Instagram and Instagram, unlike Tik Tok, doesn't really show you things outside of what you follow. Um, Instagram, you could tailor it and never see a single left wing talking point and not even find an account that.

A left-wing account was able to get in the comments and be like, this is fake news. Somehow, my algorithm never hit the other side. And this is one thing that I think a lot of people get frustrated with me about, and is that everyone's like, we all had the same set of information. I didn't I didn't know a lot of things I have learned a lot about Donald Trump for the first time in the last nine months, and the thing is I didn't comment on things again I didn't see anything so I didn't comment I didn't have anybody trying to educate me in the comment section that I'm trying to do now.

But it people really hate this but there are two sets of information out there. And VP Harris talks about this, that there is one set of information that majority people have, and then there's a set of information that a small group of us, well, I guess it's half of America, or, a third of America, don't have access to. And the thing is, is you might be able to put it in front of their face, but they're not going to be able to. The cognitive dissonance is too strong. Did you have the feeling back then that you were well-informed, that you basically had the truth? I literally thought that I was just waiting for Jesus to come back. So you asked me what my day-to-day life was. I was the definition of ignorance as bliss.

I didn't know what was going on. The worries of my life were my family. Und die Red Pill Trad Wife Pipeline wirklich works weil sie wie, warum würde ihr auf den News und disrupt ihr nervous system und get upset und dann ihr kids sehen, und dann sie get, addicted zu den News und den constanten bad things that are happening. Warum würde ihr auf taint ihre beautifulen Minds mit all den horribleen things that are going on in the world? Das ist die Narrative das sie playen. Und dann sind sie, dann, then why would you ever want to send them to daycare? Why would you ever want to send them to school? It's just going to be indoctrination. And then now they're saying, why would you want to send them to college? Just so that they could party for four years and get indoctrinated? And I literally was on that train. We did not set up college accounts for our children. We now have. One more question. When you said you were waiting for Jesus, which is a very strong term to put it, This is the reason why I'm asking the question. Did you think back then that Trump was a Jesus figure, was a savior for whatever? No. More that...

More that he was just fulfilling God's prophecy. I can point it back to all these figures in the Bible, kings in the Bible, all these godly men in the Bible. They were horrible people, like horrible people, but they fulfilled God's prophecy. And so that was the kind of perspective that I was given is like, God can get anyone at any time. It doesn't matter about their past. God can get them right now and supernaturally change them which is a lie I don't believe in that because you have to do effort to supernaturally change and this is my problem that I do have with evangelical Christianity Western evangelical Christianity is, people turn to Jesus for X, Y, and Z for reasons that are happening in their life but then there's no further being like okay let's process everything that brought you to Christianity It's this idea that you can supernaturally change who you are. And so that was the impression that I had, that God can grab Donald Trump at any point and change him and turn around and not have him be a horrible person.

But again, you go back to that, but he's anti-abortion. So we can get past all these awful things as long as he's fulfilling God's prophecy. Let me ask you a question that one of our users actually posed to me. Because you explained to me in the interview, of course, you were raised an evangelical Christian, so there was lots of certainty and very, very little doubt in your life when you were raised. But at the same time, the user is here asking, why didn't you actually, out of curiosity, go on Google and check out whether it was true what Trump was saying or not, or what the others were saying or not? I mean, what prevented you from checking out if it really was the truth what they gave you? Because I would have believed that anything that I read on the internet was fake news as well and misinformation. Like why would, I literally believed that.

People were orchestrating things behind the scenes to make it seem like it was one thing to show the public. Yeah, I literally thought anything outside of, the bubble was fake news and misinformation and all a ploy to get me to listen to the devil. Und so viele Menschen, sagen, ich habe die gleiche wie du, und ich habe Kritik-Kinke, und ich habe die gleiche wie du, und ich habe Kritik-Kinke, und ich habe nicht die gleiche wie du. Es ist ein komponenten von diesem, und das ist hart für mich, weil ich war spanked growing up.

And that fear component really alters your brain. And I mean, it got to the point where I would be told, just wait till your father gets home, you're going to be spanked. And you have no concept of time as a child. You don't know when your dad's going to be home. And so you're in fight or flight for hours.

Um and that really alters who you are and how you think how your brain thinks how the synapses happen and I got to the point where I just stopped asking questions, because either I was gas lit, or told you know you just don't understand yet or you know what and then it got to the point where I stopped asking questions because I saw how other people ask questions like, what do you mean there was two animals on the ark? Where did they poop? Where was all their food? Like, where did they do it? How did they take care of all of these animals? And I saw how people were treated and they were, you know, just made to feel stupid. Oh, you have little faith. And that type of programming from birth is really strong. So a lot of times when people tell me that they grew up the way that I did, Ich bin froh, dass du nicht. Und wenn du nicht, das ist dein Weg. Das ist mein Weg.

I'm at least trying to right my wrong now. And that's why I do feel so strongly about talking about everything. This level of intimidation and fear for punishment that you are just describing, did that come into play in any way when you basically were confronted last year in August at this moment in a conversation and somebody held the mirror up to you? I mean, if you are so in fear of punishment, it must have been clear to you, if you turn away from Donald Trump, that you might have to face some kind of revenge. I would lose everything. You would lose everything. Yeah. I mean.

I risked everything. I risked my marriage. I risked every relationship with my family and my friends. Und, aber ich wusste, dass ich was best für mich war und das wäre, was für mich wäre, was für alle. Weil ich meine, wenn, ich wirklich nicht gedacht habe, dass ich mein husband und ich könnte das survive. Wir würden nicht zusammen sein. Und es hat sich ein paar Jahre lang.

But he sees how much better I am now. He sees that I have a spark back and, that I've changed. I'm different. And he's the one person that has seen this transformation and knows that, I mean, truly, I do think people assume that I'm spinning around a cauldron now and I'm a witch and And I'm now taking all these downloads from Satan and everything. And it's just like.

None of that. I'm still who I am. I'm still praying to the same God that I always have. And the guidance that I was asking from God is, please show me where else I've been deceived. I prayed that for five years. Because from COVID happening and all that, all these new things were happening. I was learning so much stuff. And I'm like, okay, if I've been deceived on all these other areas, where else have I been deceived? Meaning like I was falling for all these conspiracies. So I was like, okay, I want to know where I need my eyes open. And I do believe I needed to go through this years-long conspiracy journey to get to where I'm at. Because there is nothing that will get me to go back into the box. Nothing. Not an amount of shame, ridicule, judgment, hate. Being alone on an island for the rest of my life, fine But I'm not going back to that prison that I used to live in.

I mean, when I hear your story, you must be and you are for sure amazingly strong. Because what you're describing is a person that was living in a constant fight-flight mode. And if the brain is so much in this mode, how can you find a moment where you let go? I mean, that must be life-threatening. Can you describe a little bit the moment and how that felt for you? I've completely eliminated my anxiety. I downplayed how anxious and how many intrusive thoughts that I used to have for decades of my life. And honestly, what got me to this point of deconstructing evangelical Christianity, deconstructing MAGA, was I wanted to start to listen to my intuition more. Because I would hear thoughts and I'd be like, wait, that would have really helped me if I listened to that thought. Like, I'll give you an example. This is always the example I use. Ich bin mit meinen Mädchen, und sie nehmen ihre Jackets aus. Und ich habe die Idee, hey, nicht vergessen, die Jackets vor ihr gehen.

Und in meinem Gedanken, ich bin mit meinem Mädchen, ich bin mit, wir sind noch spielen, ich bin mit dem später. We go inside, I forget the jackets, it starts to unexpectedly rain, and they get poured on. And I'm like, how did I listen to that thought and grab the jackets right then and go take them inside? I wouldn't have to now not have my children without jackets right now because we're about to, you know, whatever. And so I was like, okay, I'm hearing thoughts like that more. You know, sometimes you hear intrusive thoughts or thoughts of your ego, and you're like, why did I just think that? It's this positive and negative polarity in your head. And I was like, I want to hone in on that. And so as an evangelical Christian, Bible-believing, quiet time, home birth, Jesus-loving mama, I was like, okay, I'm going to start honing in on this. And I started to meditate more because I wanted to hear God. And the next thing I know, I'm like, I love everybody. I've changed the negative thoughts that I have about myself, which in turn changed the negative thoughts that I had about other people and I remember thinking in 2024 I was like this is so weird like I have compassion for gay people now.

And it was a weird 2024 was weird for me because I mean Donald Trump getting shot in the ear like that I remember being like that is weird and how we're dropping this right away and not talking about it I'm sorry you're the most narcissistic man in the world, If someone actually tried to assassinate you, you would not shut up about it. And so that was weird to me. And then I'm eliminating my negative self-talk, which again changed how I thought about other people. And again, I still voted for that because I believed in this biblical prophecy narrative. And then literally three months later, I debunked hell and realized that the punishment that my religion was dangling in front of me was not reality. Und so, die punishment went away, die fear went away, und ich dachte, ich kann Gott lieben, und ich kann Gott lieben, und ich kann Gott lieben, und ich kann nicht in diese Box sein. Und dann, ich meine, die House of Cards fell after das. Ich wünsche es, drei Monate vor das, aber hier wir sind.

I wonder if this is okay and because you have revealed so many personal deep thoughts so I feel encouraged, to ask you a very personal question because you brought up your marriage that you said I was risking my marriage because I was going out of the box, which makes me assume that maybe your husband has been in the box and has been a strong Trump supporter so how did you stayed married and how did you deal with this? Because maybe we find in your story also a question about healing. How do you heal a nation which is so polarized? I indoctrinated him. So, he actually started to doubt Donald Trump before I did. We were standing in line, voting in 2020, and he looks at me, he goes, Was, was Trump ist nicht die wir denken, dass er ist? Und ich bin, und ich bin so froh, dass er. Ich bin so froh, wie, dass ich das sage. Weil ich, als ich, wie er sagt, das ist, das zu mir.

If that's true, everything else is a lie, too. I couldn't handle that. And so one thing that most people tell me when I share online, they were like, you were never a Republican. You never were conservative. I'm like, whatever you need to say to calm your, cognitive dissonance, because that's what it is. That's what people are experiencing when they see, like, there's no way you could have been MAGA and now identify and believe democratic socialism is the answer, you know? But it can happen. But back to my husband. So he grew up in a progressive home, and in a blended home and where both parents worked, a very different family dynamic than I grew up with. And so I had this feeling in my heart that if he followed me into a religion, which he converted to Christianity when he asked my dad to marry me, I knew that he would follow me out and not that I'm asking him to leave his religion entirely you can still identify yourself as a Christian and not be a Christian nationalist.

And so it was a rough it was a rough couple years he didn't quite understand, the things that I was uncovering as far as our religion and the whole hell dynamic is a big thing but he has seen the turmoil that I have gone through über die letzten Jahre, und wie hart Deconstructing Evangelical Christianity hat er mich an. Er hat mich, dass ich, wenn ich sagen, ich nicht wollen, ich will, ich will, ich will, ich will, ich will, ich will, ich will, dass sie sind. Wenn sie wollen, dann ist es wichtig. Aber für mich, ich war nicht ein choice.

I have a follow-up question to what Ulf asked, because one of the users asked that. One of the most emotional moments in the interview that we did was when you were talking about your friends and family that you lost, actually. But still, that parts of the family still want to keep the relationship with you, of course. And that must be very hard, because they believe you are under some kind of spell or a spiritual deception, you called it, I believe. Und die andere way around so our user was asking and that's how, does it look like when you meet I mean how do you do you not talk about anything with regards to politics or how do you keep this relationship actually, Um, we don't really talk about it. Um, my family obviously watches everything that I share.

Um, and I think it's gotten to the point where they just don't bring it up anymore. A few months ago, you know, I was with some family and they were like, all they could talk about was Savannah Guthrie's mom. Hmm. And this is when everyone was talking about the Epstein files. And all I could think about when this person was sharing this with me was, oh my God, the propaganda works. Like the Fox News loop of constantly showing Savannah Guthrie's mom missing, is distracting everyone else from what the rest of the world is talking about. And that was the last thing that was ever brought up to me as far as politics. Um, I think they know now not to bring that up, um, but I'm also not in a place where I can defend my stance really well, so I'm appreciative that it's not being brought up. I can't, I can sit and type out a response and, you know, think about and rack it, but, like, getting to have a conversation and defend why, you know, I think they're wrong, I'm getting there, I'm getting to that, um, where, you know, if I hear a comment, I can be like, hey, you know, actually X, Y, and Z, I'm not there yet.

But I have, I have to trust that they see me talking about all this and they still reach out, um, and so I have to trust that.

Maybe something I say will work. And I understand why everyone writes off people that support this administration. You know, someone made a video about me saying that I can't be trusted because I do still associate with my family that supports this administration. But if I'm going to try and, I'm not going to say myself as a bridge But help create a bridge Of information that helps them understand I want to keep that bridge intact, If something happens to a point where I need to create a boundary I'm more than comfortable doing that.

My whole family, we have a trip coming up in like three weeks. And all year I have been worried about it, you know? I thought at one point the trip would cancel. My sisters actually asked me to stop talking about things online right now that affect my family. One big thing is the spanking thing. Ever since talking about that, I'm now being told that I wasn't spanked growing up.

And that is a type of reality I can't quite, explain to you unless you've experienced that, where you know without a doubt that you experienced something, but one or two or multiple people are telling you that it didn't happen, it's really destabilizing. Und so many thoughts run across your mind you're like did it happen? And then you're like are you okay up here? how do you not remember that? And so that's been hard that's been hard for me because, ignoring that, it feels like it's just something to make them feel comfortable with themselves, Und Because Because if that didn't happen Then the blame Is shifted elsewhere.

Ja, ich denke, ich kann von meiner Erfahrung, in den Ländern in Krieg und Krisen, dass das Worte, was zu einem Vizeprägen von einem Vizeprägen ist, ist nicht zu sein. Das ist manchmal sogar worse als die Vizeprägen von einem Vizeprägen. Und du kannst nicht heal, wenn du nicht gesehen hast und du bist. So, again, I see that you must be really strong to go this way. And what I wanted to ask you is, you were talking about a bridge in this country that is so divided, so strongly divided. And where do you see the possibility that a bridge can be built between these two parts of the country? Or is it correct to see it as a divided country or is it more complicated? Ich denke, ultimately, die nur eine Weise wir wirklich Heal ist, wenn Menschen haben zu Therapy. Um, that would change everything because a lot of time, I mean, I would say 90% of adults are just unhealed children walking around in large human suits. Um.

And I mean, and this goes for even people on the left, you know, I've, I've said to people that people on the left even need to deconstruct some stuff. Like, this is not a solely right-wing conservative thing that you need to go through. You need to figure out how your childhood affected you and how you are today, because that's how you operate and why you operate that way. I truly believe that overhauling our entire system is the only way. How that happens, I don't know. But I have a very strong feeling in my heart that it does. Was the timeline on that? I don't know. But I do believe that, you know, there was a church that I was going to earlier this year that's progressive, and it was talking about, you know, creative ways to resist and how other countries around the world have healed when they've had oppression. And how Ireland healed is.

They had healing meetings where people from both sides were able to speak and heal and talk about how they're feeling. And that type of environment helped more than ignoring it. And I think a lot of times when I'm appreciative that I'm able to be on podcasts like this because there's only so much that I can say in a short clip online but in a form like this you can see that I'm a real human, and I think that's what a lot of times people forget is like.

We're all human, and we all have some sort of propaganda, indoctrination, programming that we've all received in some sort of manner, and understanding that there's grace behind deconstructing that. Und ich denke, dass wir, wie hier, ich habe ein Buch, das ist, Propping auf mein Laptop. Das.

Ist was ich, zu bringen, die Laptop auf. Aber ich wollte Ihnen dieses Buch, weil das Buch hat mich und hat mich zu verstehen, wo wir als ein Land sind und wo wir müssen, ist das. Es ist das My Grandmother's Hands, von Resmaa Menachem. Und... So our country needs to know our history. And without that and understanding exactly what happened as far as slavery and, segregation and taking back 40 acres and a mule, all of these things, the only way you're actually going to understand all this is if you go back and you actually learn the history that we were purposefully ignored, from seeing and I think, because for me this book helped me understand a whole lot more this helped me understand, the black community and why they are the way that they are and how they act the way that they act and why they treat white people the way that they do, I don't blame you There was no healing that happened from what they went through.

And so that's what I truly believe is like our country needs to start to hear one another out and understand that, the trauma that someone had growing up can be very similar to the trauma that you think that you have can't relate to someone else on at all. But once you start getting down to the core, you start to realize that other people are just human and that they're dealing with the programming that they received growing up.

I think that's the core of everything. I mean, the point that you made that... You have to look at things from the human level. If you understand how policies are impacting people, maybe even causing suffering among people, the Haitians that now have to.

Leave the country or the immigrants who were put into detention camps in the United States, internment camps, you could call them, or how families are affected by the immigration policies or how, people who just wanted to engage politically are affected by being arrested just because they have a different view or a different opinion. And you could see that if, I'll give you this example in Minneapolis, when immigration policies were announced by Donald Trump, people didn't really protest too much against it because it was far away. But when it comes to your neighborhood, when your neighbors are being taken away, When maybe even US citizens, your neighbors are being shot at in Minneapolis, it all of a sudden becomes real. It becomes tangible and it creates this motivation to do something about it. And let me ask you this question that one of our users asked, actually, Wilhelm Vick asked us, do you think that the courage that is needed.

To realize that people have been wrong, specifically people who voted for Donald Trump, that this is now getting more and more and it might be enough to change things in the upcoming midterm elections in November? Yes, I do. I live in a purple state. We have a Republican governor, but our Senate is, they're Democrats. And I feel very strongly that the governor's race is this year. And I really do believe that we will have a Democratic governor in our state.

Simply because the opponent is a billionaire who has said that he will be Donald Trump's most favorite governor. And this man wasn't even endorsed by Donald Trump. His opponent was who that man lost in the primary, which, again, the MAGA-endorsed candidate didn't win the primary. So that should be another cue that people are like, no, I don't like this. But the fact that we have a billionaire running I think people are picking up That wealthy people Like that are not going Into, Politics to like Really help things because you have the money To do that you know Elon Musk Is a trillionaire now okay so what are you going to do Let's fix the world You can do that and still be As wealthy as you are but they don't want to do That.

Maybe my final The final question would be, whatever, what all you said, how hard it was to get out of the movement and how impressive your story is and how the message of love, not hate, is your message. So I understand you. It's very interesting that we have these Trump figures all over the world. They are popping out. We have Trump figures in Germany, in Brussels, in Paris, wherever you look. And you have the feeling that these kind of, sorry to say so, that's my personal opinion, these hate movements are tracking people. They are really fascinated by it. As a person who has been fascinated by this, why do you think that these Trump figures are so successful right now in the world? Because people have a lot of hate in their heart and those types of people allow them to...

Continue that hate and not change it and allow them to hide behind the same these ideologies that they stand behind. Again, it goes back to this unhealed these unhealed children, children that are walking around. I have a really hard time believing that if people actually had, the right set of information and weren't bombarded by the bubble or box that they live in, that they would be open to changing their mind. I mean, I went to rehab for 45 days inpatient. I didn't have my phone. Und für die erste, aus der College, ich war endlich mit und mit Leuten das ich nicht mehr gesprochen zu haben. Ich habe Freunde das, ich habe einen secularen Freunde von der Schule, aber, ich nicht sit mit anybody. Und ich denke, wenn man.

If you just sit with somebody, that would make the biggest difference. And that's why I really do, I talk about what Ireland did as hopefully a blueprint for us that, you know, this is how we heal. I think people just want to be heard, okay? People want to like communicate and share what's on their heart. And the times that, you give someone the chance to do that there's like major breakthrough that happened like I can think about being in rehab the people that finally would talk and finally would share and the breakthrough that they would have and like the release that they had like they had been holding in things for decades, and finally they had a release that they needed to get off their chest Ich war ein paar, Jahre alt und ich habe nicht gesprochen, um es zu sehen. Ich habe niemals gehört. Und ich habe nicht gesagt, wie viele Menschen sind, die sich auf diese Trauma zu, halten, dass sie nur in ihren eigenen eigenen eigenen eigenen eigenen Gedanken haben, nicht zu verstehen, eine außergewöhnliche Perspektive, eine außergewöhnliche Perspektive, eine außergewöhnliche Perspektive, eine außergewöhnliche Perspektive, eine außergewöhnliche Perspektive.

And so that's why I truly believe that these people follow this, because the red pill pipeline, it's very, very sneaky. It doesn't seem like it's really overt. It is very covert in their messaging. Because when you're like a, stay-at-home or a mom and you get pregnant, you're a mom for the first time and you've just left your job or you're on maternity leave and you are at home with your baby not having to think about work, you're, like, why would I want to leave my baby? I don't want to go and work. Like, I want to be with my baby the whole time. I relate to that. I related to that. But the thing is, I had that. I had the trad wife lifestyle, and I was so unfulfilled.

And I think it's also a lesson for us as media, talking to you. And I really appreciate, Carter, that you gave us your time and insight into your life. Because what we media tend to do quite too frequently is just we try to feed off the drama that is going on everywhere. And what we need to do more is create platforms for honest conversations. Where people come together, share their views, even if they are very, very opposite of each other, and try to understand the views of the others. And I think that's something that we media could contribute more to in order to overcome this polarization, I guess. Like it's even like, you know, they have these debates happening right now with, you know, a right-wing person and a left-wing. But like, I feel like if we did something like that where it wasn't a debate, It was just a, let's just talk. And I've actually spoken with a civil rights activist, and she's been sort of a mentor for me over the last six months. And this is something that we want to do, that we want to implement.

And, right, if I'm being completely honest with you, I know we're wrapping up with this.

The people that are really trying to turn this country around um, are, are being, uh, served with, uh, court papers, are being subpoenaed, are being, um.

I don't know if you heard about the Prairieland 9. In Texas. Yeah, like man, 30 years for just moving magazines. We should explain just briefly to our viewers, there are cases in Texas where people who are activists who were trying to change something are being accused of being Antifa and, conspiracy to commit murder. One of the guys, actually, we have to say, of course, is accused of having shot at a police officer, but the others have not. But they have been convicted now and sentenced to 30 to 100 years in prison, under this new rule, Presidential Memorandum, NSPM 7. And we have reported on this in the documentary as well, where everybody can be accused of being a terrorist if he has a different view from what the administration has. Yeah. And like, that's, that's scary. And I mean, it makes you rethink like, okay, like, do I actually want to do anything? I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. This is, this is Katrin's dog. I'm so sorry. It's okay. Or several dogs.

But yeah, so I had to put that out there, that even though there are people that are trying to turn this around.

The DOJ could be knocking on their door. Yeah. Well, there's plenty to report on, and I really hope to see you again in the next couple of months, maybe before or after the midterm elections. It would be great to follow up. Thank you so much, Carter, for doing this. And please say hi to your family from us. Great people, apparently. So thank you so much. And we wish you all the best for the future. Thank you, Carla. Thank you so much. Take care. Ja, ihr Lieben, das war Kater. Was ist euer Eindruck? Also mein Eindruck ist.

Dass es so wertvoll ist, mit einem echten Menschen über eine echte Erfahrung zu sprechen und nicht mit einem Experten, der allein die politische Situation analysiert. Das hat meine Perspektive auf, das Phänomen Donald Trump und seine Anhänger nochmal sehr, sehr verändert. Also ich sehe, wie hoch der Anteil von Trauma und Schmerz auch bei vielen Menschen daran ist, sich so zu radikalisieren. Und ich glaube, das ist eine Perspektive, die ich zumindest nicht immer so ganz gehabt habe. Ja, ich habe die ganze Zeit aufgeteilt.

Ich habe nachgedacht. Ich bin eigentlich noch fast zu dicht dran, um die großen Linien zu erkennen. Mir geht es ähnlich wie Katrin. Was alles eine Wahlentscheidung, das ist ja mehr als eine Wahlentscheidung, was dazu führt, dass man einen als Retter sieht, als eine vielleicht Jesusartige Figur oder als eine Figur, die Gott gesendet hat, um das durchzusetzen, an was man glaubt. Wie viel Trauma und Trauma dann in einer Person steckt, also wie komplex diese Entscheidungen sind und dass man fast manchmal denkt.

Das geht mir auch so, wenn ich manchmal Debatten in Deutschland sehe, aber in Amerika vielleicht noch mehr, das Land braucht eine Therapie fast mehr als eine harte politische, journalistische Analyse. Das ist eigentlich auch das, was du gesagt hast zum Schluss, wie schnell wir dann reagieren und sofort analysieren, zuhören, zuhören, zuhören und das gelingt anscheinend auch uns Medien nicht, sondern wir sind Teil, ob wir wollen oder nicht, des Problems, dass wir irgendwo auf Seiten stehen oder dass wir emotionalisieren, dass wir das zuspitzen. Und eigentlich gibt es, und das ist mir noch nicht ganz klar, warum das in dieser modernen Gesellschaft sich so viele Leute fertig sind oder sich auch fertig gemacht fühlen, sich fühlen, dass sie nicht gehört werden. Und eigentlich müsste man echt eine Therapie fast veranstalten. Also wahnsinnig, wie sie sich rausgearbeitet hat, wie aus einer Sekte, die Beziehung zu ihrem Mann, das Drama mit der Familie und dann irgendwie das Einzige, nicht das Einzige, das viele oder wichtigste Positive für mich ist. Dafür steht sie für mich und ich will das nicht zu pathetisch sagen. So ist es. Liebe ist am Ende dann scheint doch stärker als Hass.

Und das lebt sie halt auch vor mit ihrer Familie, obwohl das bestimmt nicht einfach ist. Aber ja, schwierig. Du müsstest fast einen Psychologen fragen, nicht einen Journalisten. Das ist echt, man ist da überfordert, muss ich ganz ehrlich sagen. Mein Eindruck auch eben von unserem Gespräch, was wir in Atlanta hatten, als wir das Interview gemacht haben, ist halt bei ihr den entscheidenden Unterschied hat, glaube ich, gemacht, dass sie mehr und mehr auch mitbekommen hat, was für eine Wirkung Politik auf Menschen hat. Also das, was ich vorhin mal formuliert habe, zu sehen auf einer menschlichen Ebene, wie sehr auch Menschen leiden unter dem, was politisch entschieden wird. Und das war, glaube ich, auch der Moment, wo sie das Gefühl hatte, da werden Menschen zu Opfern einer Politik, der man hinterhergelaufen ist, weil man dachte, damit wird alles besser. Und hier kommt, glaube ich, wieder unsere Rolle dann ganz mächtig ins Spiel. Wir sollten, wir tendieren dazu, ich auch, wir tendieren alle dazu, immer schnelle, scharfe Urteile zu fällen über alles und jeden. Es macht noch viel mehr Sinn und davon müssen wir noch viel mehr machen, hingehen und schauen, was für Auswirkungen Politik auf Menschen hat. Und das kann ja sein, dass es etwas ist wie bei der Zuwanderungspolitik. Was bedeutet das für die Menschen, die festgenommen werden in Internierungslage und dann aus dem Land geschmissen werden, aber auch was bedeutet die Wirtschaftspolitik, wenn Menschen auf einmal keine Unterstützung mehr bekommen.

Wenn sie schwer krank sind oder wenn sie nichts mehr zu essen haben. Und das gibt es ja hier in den USA. Das klingt verrückt. Dieses reiche Land hat Menschen, die hungern. Also hinzugehen und zu schauen, was widerfährt den Menschen, mit ihnen zu reden, ihnen eine Stimme zu geben, ohne ein Urteil zu fällen, sondern einfach nur zeigen, was wirklich ist. Das ist wahrscheinlich das, was wir als Journalisten am meisten daraus lernen können. Ja, was ich noch sehr beeindruckend fand und mitnehme von dem, was sie erzählt hat, ist, dass man Brücken bauen kann über die menschliche Verbindung. Und die menschliche Verbindung bleibt auch oft bei den politischen Debatten und glaube ich auch bei unserer Art, die Realität zu schildern, ein wenig in der Hinterhand. Und nur über die wird man letztendlich, glaube ich, an das Wesentliche kommen. Zumindest habe ich sie so verstanden und das erscheint mir auch sehr plausibel. Also ich habe...

Ich habe unendlich viel gelernt und ich habe ja acht Jahre in dem Land gelebt, und muss sagen, wow, vieles habe ich einfach nicht begriffen und wahrscheinlich immer noch nicht begriffen, aber das hat mir sehr geholfen.

Wirklich dieses See you, also jemand zu erkennen, das finde ich toll. Und deswegen hoffe ich, dass es auch unsere Zuschauer und Zuhörer fasziniert, ähnlich wie uns das fasziniert hat, weil wir dieses Experiment gerne weiterführen würden, mit Menschen reden, um eben mehr zu sein als Analyse, sondern erst mal Forum. Verstehen, verstehen, verstehen, bevor man bewertet, bewertet, bewertet. Also insofern danke, Elmar, dass du die Frau gefunden hast. Super. Ja, in diesem Sinne bedanke ich mich vor allen Dingen bei unseren Usern und Zuschauern auch, weil das ein Experiment ist. Also wir wissen nicht, wie es ankommt. Wir wissen nicht, ob das mit dem Englisch funktioniert, aber wir wollten es mal ausprobieren. Und wenn Sie Kritik, wenn Sie Feedback dazu haben, wenn Sie Anregungen und Ideen haben, her damit. Auslandsjournalpodcast.zdf.de. Wir versuchen das zu berücksichtigen und überlegen dann, wie können wir diese Art des Trump-Effekts auch fortführen. Also wir wollen unsere regulären Folgen haben, aber wir wollen auch immer mal wieder so etwas auszuprobieren und experimentieren ein wenig mit der Form herum. Also ein ganz herzliches Dankeschön an alle, die uns zuschauen, zuhören, aber auch an euch, ihr Lieben. Es war wieder ein Vergnügen und eine Ehre und macht's gut und eine gute Woche euch. Dankeschön. Tschüss.

Journals.